As ministers of various churches and denominations we recognise that the churches we belong to, and the church in general, have not been places of welcome for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) people. Indeed the church has often been profoundly unloving toward the GLBT community. For these things we apologise, whatever the distinctive of our Christian position on human sexuality – to which we remain committed. We are deeply sorry and ask for the forgiveness of the GLBT community. We long that the church would be a place of welcome for all people and commit ourselves to pursuing this goal.
We ARE a group of Christian ministers who voluntarily and individually bring this apology.
We ARE NOT official representatives of our churches or denominations.
We ARE NOT making a statement on the biblical position on gay and lesbian relationships.
We ARE recognising the lack of hospitality, care and welcome that the churches have offered the gay and lesbian community.
Saturday, February 2, 2008
The '100Revs' Statement
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93 comments:
May I suggest that since Kevin Rudd is apologizing to the Aboriginal people on Feb 12 it is important that when we say sorry in the parade that it is not mistaken for an agreement with what Kevin Rudd is apologising for (not that I disagree with him, I think it is wonderful and about time), but it needs to be very clear who we are apologising to and why, otherwise we will be getting very tired legs for nothing.
Tell the hate mongering bigots to keep their limp excuse for an apology.
Apologizing for having "...not been places of welcome for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) people." and "been profoundly unloving toward the GLBT community." so thoroughly white washes the routine maiming, murdering, and mutilating of GLBT at the hands of Christians that it's insulting and totally self serving. Christians are swimming in a sea of blood they've spilled from innocents. No apology that fails to address the magnitude of Christian crimes against GLBT humanity is acceptable.
It's carefully worded so as not to offend the fundadametalist church leaders.
I understand there has been much thought go into this apology. It's a start and a significant one. What is important in my eyes is the heart of all who support and participate in the march.
Trying to right the many wrongs is not an easy goal but it is the right direction. What follows on from this will be equyally as important.
Reading "thug's" entry I read intense anger and injury. Perhaps "thug" it's time to let tyhe healing begin and it starts with "sorry".
Can someone please apologise for John Christopher Sunol -- a fundamentalist Christian preacher type in Newcastle.
He has been the only religiously-inspired hatemonger to be hauled before the NSW Anti-Discrimination Tribunal and found to have vilified homosexuals.
He even hates you and believes the 100 Rev movement will be going to hell.
Please pray for John Sunol!
In a time when 'Sorry' seems to be on the agenda, I feel the time is right to apologize to the GLBT community for the lack of grace and compassion that Christians have shown in the past. The message of Jesus was one of love, grace and forgiveness for ALL, not just those who are in the 'right club' or can spout the most Bible verses. May the Church become the welcoming community that Jesus envisaged when He died for all people.
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love. (2 John 1:3)
Rev Tim Hayman
I find it sad that comments have been made emotively and from personal experiences, rather than an objective view of the Word of God. Irrespective of our experiences which can be deceptive, the Word of God stands forever. Down through the centuries there have been homosexuals - they are not a new phenomenon! In Jesus' times they were there and He spoke specifically of them and their situation. He spoke of every sin and vice in the same manner - with compassion, love, mercy and FORGIVENESS for those who REPENTED and TURNED from their sin. It didn't matter if you lied, murdered, committed adultery, or were homosexual - the same rule (in love) applied to all. 'Sorry' did not come from Jesus' lips because He wanted all to be with Him in eternity. I am glad no-one apologised to me (an ex-alcoholic) when I needed to hear the gospel in love. I had some HARD LOVE given to me and because of that I am walking with Christ today. My desire is for all homosexuals to come to repentance, see that their lifestyle is NOT normal, and be set free to love and serve Jesus the same way I am - in love to all, but not compromising the gospel message !
Homosexuals cannot enter heaven(1CORINTHIANS 6:9).
WITHOUT REPENTANCE OF THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY THERE CANNOT BE COMMUNION WITH JESUS THE TRUE GOD.
gODS WORD IS CLEAR IN THE BIBLE..
Homosexuality can be cured through repentance and prayer.
I too was once homosexual until I saw the light that is Jesus of nazareth.
Through him all things are possible including abandoning homosexuality
Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 , Romans 2:2-8 , Romans 1: 18-22, 24-26 , 2 Peter, 2:4-6,17 and Genesis 19: 1-4
Deliberate homosexual acts are gravely sinful. They violate God's law and they violate our very humanity, misusing the faculties He entrusted us with, such as our sexuality and our pro-creative abilities. Homosexual acts are a grave depravity and intrinsically disordered. They close the sexual act to the gift of life and do not proceed from a genuine and affective sexual complementarity.
An interesting study was described in the book "The Decline of Males" by Lionel Tiger. This study was done on a group of monkeys. The alpha male "Austin" was attracted to 3 females and mated with them. These 3 were given a chemical hormonal contraceptive used by many women in our society which is a synthetic form of a pregnancy hormone which induces a pseudo -pregnancy and so prevents ovulation. The alpha male lost all interest in the 3 females and went to the other females in the group to mate with them. So they contracepted all the females and the alpha male and the other male monkeys started acting out sexually with each other...........?? The contraceptives were stopped for all the females and the alpha male went back to the first 3 females.
It is normal behaviour for a man to be attracted to a woman in the fertile part of her cycle. When this doesn't happen the women have to become more immodest to attract males- hence the plunging necklines and the tight genes and short skirts lately. Interesting?
On a sadder note it would seem to me that the horrifying increase in child sexual abuse especially of girls as was stated in the news last night-would be related to the above too. If men without morals, no Faith in God or belief in the Commandments, filling themselves with pornography which is on the increase too, are not interested in the contracepting women of which there is a massive abundance now, where do they go to act out their sexual frustration---innocent children especially pubescent girls and boys.It seems a logical conclusion for an immoral atheistic society, and the pity of it is the inability to see the root of the problem is one lack of belief in God and two the use of contraception instead of Natural Family Planning in healthy marriages blessed by God- which goes with God's design in Natural Law.
Natasha, it grieves me that someone who has been homosexual and has 'seen the light', could still express such an unloving and uncaring attitude as you have done.
I Praise God with you that you have found a way to be 'normal' and therefore 'acceptable to Jesus', but what about all the others who have cried out to God for a miracle, gone through all the torturous 'healing methods' of the church and still not found the 'way out' as you have. Surely you can find compassion in your heart for their plight.
What you have said in your blog and the way you have expressed it is the very reason we MUST apologise to these precious people who haven't been able to find a way out, because that's the attitude that the church has whipped them with for decades and for many that attitude has destroyed them along with any hope of ever being 'normal'.
What would Jesus do? The only people I know of that Jesus got angry with in the Bible were the so called 'spiritual leaders' of the day, for their self righteousness, false piety and lack of compassion for their fellow man.
I believe that if Jesus was here on earth now that He would be seeking these people out to minister His love and healing into their lives where there has been such hatred and cruelty. There is no way He would be using His Word to bash them and abuse them yet again.
Remember Paul's words in 1 Cor 13, that without love we are nothing but a big, loud noise.
Natasha I am asking you to reconsider your attitude and comments and show the same compassion that Jesus showed to you when He graciously set you free.
Natasha, have a read of different translations of that verse of 1 Corinthians, and the majority of them won't mention 'homosexuals' because most translators don't agree that's what the original Greek word means.
Geraldine, Jesus did NOT say anything about homosexuality.
It's all very well for people to use the Bible as the eternal word of God, but first you have to make sure you actually know what the Bible says - not just what you THINK it says.
"Whilst we were still sinners Christ died for us."
Lets not get Gods love and justice mixed up here. God loves homosexuals, gossips, murderers, rapists, liars, etc... But He doesnt love sin... He loves the sinner, hates the sin.
I dont think anyone is appologising for the "homosexuals sin", rather they want to appologise for the way they have been treated.
The Salvation Army started up because church people didnt treat the poor, alcoholics, prostitutes well. TSA loved the sinner and preached a very full on message of repentance. They were seen as compassionate people even though they told people they were going to hell.
Wether we believe homosexuality is a sin or not, we need to treat people with dignity and compassion. And importantly We also need to preach the truth.
Strong doctrine strong grace.
Someone (anon.) says,
"Natasha, it grieves me that someone who has been homosexual and has 'seen the light', could still express such an unloving and uncaring attitude as you have done."
What a ridiculous statement. Since when is it 'unloving' to violently grab a blind person from running off the edge of a cliff? Sin must be called sin.
Romans 7:13 says, "in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."
Paul, in Romans, was telling others their lifestyle of sin, and of trying to obey the law, was not enough. They were all "guilty before God" (Rom 3:19). Was this loving? Yes.
As the last post says, the Salvos preached repentance yet they were seen as compassionate. "Strong doctrine strong grace" Does one have to be "angry" or haters? No.
But people may take it that way because they love their life of sin. However, their judgment will come, and even now, in the case of 80% of aids cases being homosexual in australia (sorry, no source).
It is loving, however, to show them how to properly live in a godly manner - as Jesus did - to show God's miraculous conversion power, and healing power - as Jesus did - and to expose the lies of the day, such as that we somehow ought to be marching with half dressed and filthy mouthed people to be 'accepting' and 'diverse' people. Exposing lies is what Jesus did too.
And as for the Jesus speaking not about homosexuality-- the phrase 'sexual immorality' covered this in Matthew 15:19, and Mark 7:21. But Jesus didn't speak against abortion as such, and yet we know from the Bible as a whole that it is wrong.
But, read up about stories of people who have come out of homosexuality, and know the LIGHT of the Gospel! How else can we actually reach out to these people effectively?
Activist gay ‘rights’ groups refuse to accept the scientific research out now which de-bunks the prevailing myths about same-sex attraction. These myths are as follows:
1. Homosexuality is innate, and came about through a genetic cause. Wrong! Bogus! There is no gay-gene, the human genome study has shown there is no basis for this.
2. Nothing can be done to change homosexual tendencies and behaviour. Wrong!
One psychiatrist alone in the USA has treated about 400 men, women and children with this disorder. It is a gender- identity attachment disorder, same-sex attraction has it’s roots in a gender identity disorder and other attachment disorders in early childhood. One critical issue is the inability to develop secure attachment friendships with the same sex in early childhood and with the parent of the same sex, making them feel rejected and marginalized.
Instead of going to “gay- affirmation therapy sessions” to rid themselves of the guilt they feel for living a life of sexual promiscuity, it would be better for them to find the right healing for the right disorder. It’s pointless getting sex-change operations, as every cell in our bodies is either male or female. Shouting down, intimidating and insulting the voices that try to tell them they have a problem and it needs healing will not change the fact that they have a problem and it is not going away until they find healing.
3. Approximately 10% of the population has same-sex attraction. Wrong! It has been demonstrated in study after study that it is only 3-5% of the population .Why is 10% used? Because is draws political pressure and funding from governments and other organizations to start infecting the education system and laws concerning “hate speech” against anyone stating the truth about this condition. Also to insist on recognition of “gay unions” as “marriages” to get the same benefits.
4. This is a happy satisfying lifestyle. Wrong! Even in countries which have given into this pressure like the Netherlands and New Zealand and Canada, it has been found that there are 3-5 times more serious psychiatric illnesses in this group than any other. Why? Because there is no sexual fidelity, rampant promiscuity and lack of commitment between partners. We all seek a loving committed relationship and attachment which does not exist in this lifestyle so there is a very high incidence of anger, depression and substance abuse amongst those living this lifestyle.
Why would anyone want to encourage others in such a damaging and unhappy lifestyle of sexual depravity and misery. That is not compassionate.
It would be better to help them seek healing and wholeness through psychiatric help. Extremely high levels of anger,serious depression and substance abuse due to rampant promiscuity and sexual infidelity and lack of stability in relationships are not good signs of a happy fulfilled lifestyle.....
"4. This is a happy satisfying lifestyle. Wrong! Even in countries which have given into this pressure like the Netherlands and New Zealand and Canada, it has been found that there are 3-5 times more serious psychiatric illnesses in this group than any other. Why?"
...because even in those countries, there are people hell-bent (and I use the term deliberately) on making gays and lesbians feel bad about themselves.
You may disagree with that proposition, but until society STOPS treating GLBT people like dirt, there's actually no way of untangling cause and effect and testing whether the high rate of psychiatric illness is innate, or whether it's brought about by living in an environment of abuse. Come back in about 50-70 years and we might find out.
"And as for the Jesus speaking not about homosexuality-- the phrase 'sexual immorality' covered this in Matthew 15:19, and Mark 7:21."
This is an entirely circular argument. If you can't see that, then there is no hope of you looking at what the Bible actually says with any kind of open eyes.
1. Do you ever think people give far too much weight to homosexuality being a sin? I am the first to acknowledge it is wrong, but why do we focus so much on it as compared to our anger at our boss/traffic, or our slander of George Bush/John Howard. My point is that people are happy to point the finger at homosexuals, but perhaps they should also take a massive look inside themselves and realise they too are not sinless. Are not all sins equal in God's sight? We paint homosexuality to be so much worse than the rest...is this true? I believe not.
2. Ask yourself this...If you started up a conversation at a bus stop and somebody revealed they were homosexual, what would you do/say? If you are one who feels strongly about convicting someone about the 'wrongness' of their actions...would you say it then and there to this new person? Would you hit 'em with the hard fact of the bible? With a "you're wrong" attitude. Or are you one who would build up a friendship with that person and talk about it at a later date, in a more gentle way? Interesting...I think of Jesus with the woman at the well, where he gives it to her straight about her many wives, and yet I think of Zacheus whom he shared a meal with and likely built a friendship with, resulting in him repenting on his own. I guess my thought here is...what if we cannot apply blanket rules to how we respond to homosexuals? What if each person is unique? What if some need it cold and hard, and others need a more gentle approach through friendship?
One thing I want to leave you all with is...NONE of us are any better, or worse, than homosexuals. God loves them as much as he loves you. When you see them in the Mardi Gras, check your heart...do you hate them? Do you despise them as individuals? Because that should not be the case!
I think people are getting very confused here.
There is difference between sexual behaviour and sexual orientation. Being same sex oriented doesn't automatically mean you are immoral or promiscuous than it does if you are heterosexual.
Most of my friends are gay or lesbian. Most are in monogamous long term relationships and are very happy. in fact quite normal.
Anyone these days who believes a person can change from being gay to being straight is very naive.
http://alifeofunlearning.blogspot.com/2007/08/five-of-australias-ex-gay-leaders.html
From the American Psychiatric Associations website
http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm
What is Sexual Orientation?
“Sexual orientation” is a term frequently used to describe a person’s romantic, emotional or sexual attraction to another person. A person attracted to another person of the same sex is said to have a homosexual orientation and may be called gay (both men and women) or
lesbian. Individuals attracted to persons of the other sex are said to have a heterosexual orientation. Sexual orientation falls along a continuum and individuals who are attracted to both men and women are said to be bisexual. Sexual orientation is different from gender
identity, which refers to the internal sense of whether one is male or female. Sexual orientation is a relatively new concept. In fact, although same sex behavior has always existed, the idea of a homosexual identity or a homosexual person is only about 100 years old.
The concept of sexual orientation refers to more than sexual behavior. It includes feelings as well as identity. Some individuals may identify themselves as gay lesbian or bisexual without engaging in any sexual activity. Some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person’s lifetime. Individuals maybe become aware at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual.
Is Homosexuality A Mental Disorder?
No. All major professional mental health organizations have gone on record to affirm that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association’s Board of Trustees removed homosexuality from its official diagnostic manual, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSM II). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. The experts found that homosexuality does not meet the criteria to be considered a mental illness.
What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in
children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.
If the narrowminded heterosexual christian is going to rely on biblical evidence, then discover for yourself that the born-natural-eunuch of Matt 19:12 was actually born in-tact with no physical defect. So if he was born with testicles; What made him a eunuch? Answer: he had no lust for a woman. These individuals also shared the common bond of homosexuality. This is the end of the dispute! Jesus said: "There were some so born from their mothers womb". If the heterosexual Christians were to lift their minds out of the gutter, they will see their is no law against love. What God has cleased, call not thou unclean. For indisputable evidence of my claims go to: http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/cardiff.htm
Now, concerning promiscuity within the gay community: What is that to thee! you got it wrong about their natural being, what makes you the rightous judge?
When asked to add my perspective to this discussion I was pleased to do so. My purpose here is not to endorse or comment upon the stance of this website or the views it contains, rather it is simply to add my voice to the developing and important dialogue occurring around the issue of faith and sexual orientation.
I have known many sincere Christians who are also attracted to members of their own gender. Almost without exception, I have seen the very real anguish and pain that accompany this situation. Many people suffer deeply in their mental, physical and spiritual health. The result of this strain can be traumatic, debilitating and overwhelming. It is because of my genuine concern for the wellbeing of those who face this dilemma, and my very real desire that they not be unnecessarily harmed, that I have written this statement.
I have also seen many of my brothers and sisters show great courage in their choices as they seek to respond to the profoundly difficult challenge of reconciling their faith and sexuality. Many of these have managed to live a life of integrity and morality as same sex oriented individuals. I am also aware that at the end of the day all I really have to share is a little from my own unfolding story.
I was involved with Exodus ministries for nearly 20 years until my recent 'retirement' at the end of 2006. During this time I fulfilled a number of functions with Exodus ministries including leadership roles at local, regional (Asia Pacific) and international levels. During the last two decades my views concerning the issue of Christian faith and homosexuality have undergone considerable growth and change. This has been the result of many things: my own journey, my developing understanding of God and, as I have shared above, the experiences of friends and other courageous brothers and sisters I have met on the way.
In the past I have been ardent in my opinion that homosexual orientation was unquestioningly a result of the 'fall' and God's intention was therefore always to heal the same-sex attracted believer and help them to be 'whole'. In the past I have frequently spoken publicly in support of these views. However, my position is now somewhat different. I now believe that it is crucially important that we all learn to respect the rights and choices of gay and lesbian believers as they work through the complexities of their unique situation with God in their own way and in their own time.
John Meteyard
Former Exodus Asia Pacific & Living Waters Leader and on the International Advisory Board of Exodus
An interesting assumption concerning the fall: Homosexuality was present in all of creation, animal, plant and sea-creatures. What makes you think the fall of Man caused homosexuality, when it already existed?
In the past I have been ardent in my opinion that homosexual orientation was unquestioningly a result of the 'fall' and God's intention was therefore always to heal the same-sex attracted believer and help them to be 'whole'. In the past I have frequently spoken publicly in support of these views. However, my position is now somewhat different. I now believe that it is crucially important that we all learn to respect the rights and choices of gay and lesbian believers as they work through the complexities of their unique situation with God in their own way and in their own time.
Trevor,
you say, "Come back in about 50-70 years and we might find out."
Is this not the same way the government treated prostitution in Victoria, and look at how that went. Just further and further downwards. (Making Sex Work: A Failed Experiment with Legalised Prostitution by Mary Lucille Sullivan). It (homosexuality) is not a clean behaviour, it will only grow and get worse, we cannot promote that which is wrong. Rather, we show people Jesus, and the right way of living.
And, okay maybe the argument is circular if homosexuality is regarded as okay in your eyes. But try Romans 1:26,27 for circular! It is painstakingly clear.
John Meteyard, your comments on the anguish and strain of people attracted to their same gender is because they are living in sin! And telling people this does not mean hatred. Do you not violently pull or push someone out of the way of a truck to save their lives?
Modern Psychological methods to try to reverse this disorientation won't work because psychology doesn't believe in sin. GLBT's need to repent -- as do murderers and rapists and even those who lie -- and fall on their knees before Jesus Christ, and forsake that which is wrong.
Their "work.. of their unique situation with God in their own way" is the wrong way to put it. They do -- as we all -- have choice, and as you say, we do need to respect this to some extent, there is no forced conversion to Christ, however, we go to God in His way, not our way. You are fundamentally in error! Jesus started his ministry with the words "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". Yes we need to be more loving and extend grace, but to those who actually think that homosexuality is normal and okay behaviour--well, as I wrote elsewhere, if you don't believe the Bible, believe the evidence.
Check out the lewdness of MCV or other homosexual newspapers; check out '21 reasons why gender matters' (email me for a copy); or check out focus on the family's books http://resources.family.
org/product/xy112.do
It would seem that the comments have degenerated somewhat and the real thread has been missed. Opinions are of little value in an arena of this type. Individualism will mean that you will have as many opinions as you have people represented.
The context here is that of ministers purporting to represent Jesus Christ supporting a homosexual march. If this is correct, then two things need to happen. First, If you are not a Christian and do not even want to consider the wider implications of the issue in the Christian context, then I politely suggest that you find somwhere else to express your concerns. Second, If Christians are to discuss this issue, then we have but one basis, God's eternal Word -- Living and written.
As Christians it is truth that matters. God alone is our standard and God alone is the standard. The Bible was given by the Holy Spirit when he moved men to speak (2 Peter 1:21)and it is breathed out by God (2 Timothy 3:16-17) for the express purpose of "training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
As such, the whole Bible is our source book for life and attaining to holiness -- for our purpose is to be Holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:14-16)
So, the first point is that the prevalent idea that it only matters if Jesus said it is one which has to be buried. Jesus is in Harmony with the Godhead, that written by the Holy Spirit is that with which Jesus agrees.
The second point is that we need to use all of the Bible as it is given for our instruction (1 Corinthians 10:11; Romans 15:4 ). Furthermore, when we use the Bible, we must do so in a legitimate manner. We must read what it says, not what we hope it says or what we think it says. Least of all should we twist it inside out.
This said, let us look at the issues. There has been debate over 1 Corinthians 6:9ff. One writer spoke of not elevating homosexuality above slander. Based on this text, that was a good point. We should not highlight homosexuality above the other sins listed. Romans 1:18 says, "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men". In short all of the sins listed rouse God's anger. So, let us not highlight homosexuality to a level that is unwarranted. Equally, we cannot dismiss it and play-it-down as though it is of no consequence.
The Bible talks about a man with a man as wrong. 1 Corinthians 6 lists homosexuality among sins for which people will not enter the Kingdom (Michael's thesis that the words do not mean "homosexual" not withstandaing). So what do we do with this. We cannot minimise it. We cannot pretend that it is not an issue, for the Holy Spirit says it is -- and a serious one at that. We are talking of nothing less than being reconciled to God and living in harmony with Him for eternity. No struggles, no tears, no sorrow.
The key here is to read 1 Corinthians 6 again. After the list of exclusions, Paul writes: "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
This is the key. Homosexuality is under God's judgement. As is the murderer. Both condemned, yet both can be "justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ."
One writer spoke of the church's "torturous healing methods." I presumme they meant Romanism. All I can say is that there is no torture in salvation through Jesus Christ. The Scripture says, "if the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:36)
Salvation is not an auto. Man cannot save himself. Chanting, kissing beads, flogging yourself or whatever else, will never lead to salvation. If man could save himself then it was unnecessary for Christ to die as a substitute. Because man cannot save himself, Christ did die as a substitute.
To manipulate the Bible to say that homosexuality is not a sin and that it is acceptable to God, to Jesus, and to the Holy Spirit, is to, in fact, take away the only true avenue for peace and recocilliation. It would be like going to the doctor, being diagnosed with a life-threatining illness and then refusing the only elixir that can save because you would not accept that you had an illness.
By twisting the Scripture's teaching with things like 'Jesus did not condemn homosexuality' or 'the Bible only condemns homosexual rape, not loving relationships' is to deny the problem and thereby the One true hope -- Jesus Christ.
Remeber, "there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved," but that of Jesus Christ.
I can only add that to continue on the path of self justification is to continue under God's judgement. It is to continue in a paradox where you claim to do something because you love God, when the very thing you are doing angers God because it is disobedience.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." This is mankind's estate. Fallen and lost. That lostness will manifest itsel in various ways -- slander, murder, theft, homosexuality. The answer, the Foundness, is in Jesus Christ alone, Head of the Body and of His Church.
So as Christians we must balance the view that God is angered by homosexuality and sets His face against it with the knowledge that salvation and liberation in Jesus Christ is possible.
As an end note, it must be added that Jesus has been appointed by God the Father to judge the world (2 Timothy 4:1, Romans 2:15). This is important because many try to drive a wedge between Father and Son. Such is not the case and it is not at all Biblical.
Jesus will judge the unrepentant homosexual, murderer, theif, just as He will embrace and forgive the repentant sinner, "justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"
The ultimate question is this: do you know Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour, the liberator from and victor over sin and death? Religious dialogue is of no benefit. It is about the reality of Jesus Christ as Lord, enthroned in your heart and life, and that peaceful surrender in which we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, "being conformed to His image" (Romans 8:29) so that we may be holy as He is Holy.
Sincerely and Honestly for Jesus Christ and His Kingdom, that all His people may dwell forever together with one mind bound in the knowledge that we are redeemed with the precious blood of Jesus Christ, God's only son and not of works that none can boast.
Murray McLeod-Boyle
Murray,
I am quite sure that I am both gay and saved. And this assurance comes not from me, but from my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
If we're going to discuss 'manipulating' the Bible to support a particular position, maybe we need to discuss slavery, women as property, and interracial marriages. Just so we can understand how the Bible has been interpreted to both support and condemn these things.
God bless you and your assurance Murray. In the not too distant future God will demonstrate this simple truth to all through power and demonstration of the Spirit. I am heterosexual and am assured that the gays of our time have a unique roll to play in the demonstration of God's power. This demonstration will provoke all opposing Christians to jealousy, a great and godly sorrow will overshadow the Evangelicals and subsequent repentance will follow. I am not purporting the Ministers who march with the Gays, I support them!
Trevor, I would like to suggest you read the Bible through clear glasses. Could the woman cought in adultery in John 4 simply say Jesus did not condemn me so I can go on being an adulterer. No, because Jesus also said "Go and sin no more".
You may well know Jesus does not condemn you, but he still says "go and sin no more".
You cannot show me anywhere in the Bible where it says 'a man lying with another man is not sin'.
Even if you do not act out your homosexuality I would remind you that Jesus also said of adultery 'what you do in your heart and mind is the same as if you actually did it.
Identifying as a homosexual is an act of the will. Identifying as a theif is an act of the will. Both need repenting of.
Friends of mine have totally turned from homosexuality through the saving grace of God - those who have not made it yet and are temppted with same-sex thoughts know they are wrong and know they must resist them. God is forgiving and ready to pick you up but you have to acknowlege your sin.
1 Corinthians 6 9-10 does include homosexuality and homosexuals. Attempts to change the meaning by people like Boswell and Bailey do not stack up, I strongly suggest you go to http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj3h.pdf
where James B. De Young gives a very clear expose of this issue.
The Bible says people will have itching ears to hear what they want to hear and you appear to be doing just that.
Trevor, self justification will not get you into heaven - only a clear understanding of the Word of God and repentance of sin can do that.
Assured by whom Michael?
That 'word of knowledge' certainly did not come from God because He does not contradict his own word. Like Trevor I suggest you read the Bible through clear glasses and stop “listening to godless chatter and opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith” (Tim 6: 20-21)
When Dr. Laura Schlessinger caused so much controversy in the US by stating on her radio show in August 2000 that homosexuals were biological errors and deviates, quoting Lev 18 & 20. the email below began circulating the internet and demonstrates how irrelevant those verses are to us in the 21st Century.
Dear Dr Laura
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
b. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
d. Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
e. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g. Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Author Unknown
This apology is carefully worded so as not to offend church leaders. That's a little sad, but it is also a step in the right direction.
Perhaps someday the 'careful wording' to avoid giving offense can be dropped. Kevin Rudd's speech to Parliament in apology to the Stolen Generations was not 'carefully worded' it gave offense to some. Truth is offensive.
Jesus never 'carefully worded' anything he said. He gave offense.
Still, I don't condemn, merely point out that perhaps it is not quite enough. It is a start though.
Also sad is the fact that even though you have not made any statement, and not wanted to have any theological debate, some just can't keep those itchy fingers away from starting one. (I come under that myself in some ways. :) )
Thank you for having the guts to apologize. I pray for greater fortitude for you also.
Sr Meg
Peter,
Thanks for the link to the de Young article. I wouldn't immediately say that it is convincing, but at least it is a genuine attempt to discuss the meaning of 'arsenokoitai'.
I appreciate it.
- Trevor
Murray it was I who spoke about the 'torturous healing methods' of the church, and I did not mean Romanism. I meant the traumatic exorcisms, shock treatments, diversionary therapies, etc of the (particularly pentecostal) churches of today. You have quoted John 8:36 "if the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed." Does that mean that if a homosexual still feels homosexual after coming to Jesus that in fact Jesus chose not to set them free?
You started your statement by saying that the real thread of this subject has been missed and you are correct. My understanding of these postings is to discuss the church apologising for its lack of Christian love shown to those GLBT's who, in seeking a relationship with Jesus have been very badly treated by those who should be showing Jesus' love.
Yes we have to stand on the Word of God and not compromise the truth, but we must do so with compassion and grace.
It is so easy for a heterosexual Christian to demand of a homosexual that they have to give up their orientation, relationships and in many cases family in order to be acceptable to Jesus. I am not arguing the right or the wrong of that requirement, I am arguing for a compassion in our heterosexual hearts to understand the consequences for a homosexual. Consider someone who has been in a very meaningful relationship with their partner for 10 or 15 years and who now has to break up that relationship, possibly lose the children that were part of that relationship and if they are not 'healed' resulting in their orientation being changed to heterosexuality then they have to contemplate a life of celebacy.
Just try to imagine that for yourself. In order to serve Jesus you have to give up your wife and children, live alone and never have sex again, then you will be acceptable to Jesus!
You may think this is a very silly example but it is very real to every homosexual who is longing for a relationship with Jesus.
We need to be showing far more love, compassion and grace than throwing God's word around like a heartless hammer that has no feelings.
May I suggest that what happened to Sodom may happen to the western church of today. Not because of those who welcome homosexuals but because of God's condemnation in Ezekial 16:49. He says very clearly that Sodom was destroyed because they were gluttonous and did not care for the poor. Today's churches are filled with gluttonous people who spend all their wealth on themselves and think they are doing really well if they support one child in a poor nation. If we, the western church, were to stand before God today, with all of our luxurious houses and cars and every conceivable pleasure that we allow ourselves, and saw God looking from us to the starving nations of the world, do you think that He would be able to overlook the sin of Ezekial 16 because we managed to uphold the scripture about not letting homosexuals into the church?
My point is that we should be far more concerned about the log in our own eye than pointing out the splinter in someone else's eye.
Those of us who want to say sorry to the GLBT's are NOT saying that we agree with the life style, but that we are sorry in not caring enough about their plight when they have tried to find their way to Jesus.
Thug
Grow up mate and get a brain and a life!
Get the balls and meet Mike Hercock who organised 100REVS before you carry on like a true twit!
Geraldine
Alcohol has clearly affected your brain and good senses!
Jesus NEVER spoke specifically to homosexuals ... you are another fine example of a christian fool! Go back to the bottle love you might make more sense.
What is very clear by the likes of Nathan and others is that you are trouble makers. You have no real grasp on the issues and quote endless dribble from articles as if you were experts on being gay.
To Mike and the team at 100revs you are courageous and I salute you. You have my full support
The idiots that feel they are called by God to to denounce your plans are mere fools lost in some christian fantasy. They are but drops in the ocean of life ... take no head of their perpetual grandstanding. For the most they are gutless leeches on life who have found a church where now they think they can be high and mighty and start wagging their fingers at gays but quickly forgetting their own sinful existence.
None of the knob heads that condemned have a spine. they cower like frightened puppies in the corner of their irrelevant churches hiding behind scripture like their mothers apron. they are a miserable excuse for Christians and do no good for the church in the eyes of those of us who are gay.
If for one minute they had known God they would retract their feeble rhetoric, fall prostrate and ask for forgiveness. But their stubborn pride is their sin and for that they will be held accountable on the last day.
i for one have decided not to take their banter any more and will gladly 'face off' with these heartless cowards at any time at any place. But guess what? They will run away like frightened weasels telling anyone who will listen how hard done by they are and how holy they have become.
The spirit of the pharisee is alive and well and its about time more of us stood up and confronted these jokers and told them a few home truths. none of those who have taken the time to comment on this blog are special in the eyes of God, they are mere humans like the rest of us flawed to the core. They will be so naive as to point out that Jesus has washed away their sins and they have a heavenly license to be obnoxious and conceited. These legalists should be ignored and laughed at ... their christianity is empty and shallow like their comments devoid of any christlikeness
Andrew, what is very clear from your writing is that you only have emotion to counter the Biblical truth given by others on this blog.
I don't think calling the Bible "dribble" helps your cause very much either. After all, that is what most people are quoting. Incidentally, neither you, nor any other 'defender of homosexuality', has offered even one Biblical statement that suggests homosexuality is NOT included in Jesus exhortation to flee from "sexual immorality". In fact you cannot show any evidence to support your acceptance of homosexuality from the Bible so you simply resort to calling people names like "fools" and "idiots".
As for us hiding in a corner, I and a number of other people who have contributed to this blog are only too happy to publicly debate the issue. I have been interviewed by 'joyFM' on more than one occasion but they refuse to let me go live - head to head, as I have offered. I wonder why?
I was quoted in MCV last week following an interview. I have spoken at Senate hearing against the normalisation of homosexuality - why because the Bible clearly states it is NOT 'normal' - that is why it calls it a sin.
But let us also remember that Jesus does offer forgiveness, healing and wholeness for those who repent - whatever the sin. Total surrender to Him means surrendering the ‘idol’ of homosexuality.
He may choose not to heal the STDs or the AIDs, but He will always heal the heart if the head is willing.
The choice is yours Andrew, nobody can do it for you - saying sorry will not open Heavens gates - You have to decide to listen to God rather than the 'false prophets’ of homosexual acceptance.
One last thing, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for making up their own rules and for their pious, self righteous attitudes. He did NOT criticise them for upholding the written law – as it was written.
It is people who say homosexuality is not wrong that are making up their own rules, Andrew.
Nobody writing on this blog has been self righteous – we acknowledge we are all sinners.
Also remember that it is the self justification of sin we speak against, not the sinner.
in reply to letter by dr laura--we don't follow those old laws because we are under a new covenant, one with Jesus Christ. However, the old law gives us a picture of what God likes/dislikes, particularly in the area of morality. Indeed 9 of the 10 commandments are reaffirmed in the NT (just not sabbath). Have a look here: www.tektonics.org/lp/lawrole.html for more info.
and thanks, Andrew, for your comments. However, you are not helping your cause by basing your arguments on words such as "idiot, knob head.." but in fact proving that you have no argument against what I said.
To warn others of sin, to flee from sin, is actually a command of God, all throughout the Bible--and turn to Jesus Christ and live the way He lived. see 1 Cor 6:18; Revelations 21:8.
Thank you, andrew, for reminding us that we are sinful people--I for one know that I am no where the standard of holiness that God calls us all too. The point remains: if someone is condoning acceptance of sin (ie. participating in the Mardi Gras) something must be said.
If I said or implied that I was perfect--well I am sorry, I know that I am far from it.
As it stands a far more humble approach to answer someone is not to call them names or avoid their arguments, but to go the source of truth which is the Word of God.
To warn someone from impending doom I would have thought was loving, but perhaps we need to be more diverse and accommodating and not tell anyone about people who have been saved out from homosexuality, and not tell anyone about the facts of the dangers of sexual promiscuity, and not tell anyone about the abomination of which it is, but yeah--we should get alongside them and tell them how great they are and how much God loves them and make them feel less guilty. (end sarcasm)
Sometimes the truth hurts. Maybe it is hard to lose longtime relationships. But to lose a relationship with God is of the utmost importance. It is compassionate to lead someone to the Lord, and cast out the devil of homosexuality; it is NOT compassionate to make somebody feel better about their guilt.
Peter......what are you going to do with all the 1000's of gay and lesbian Christians around the world now who live moral lives and have a strong and living faith in Jesus Christ. You cant condemn or judge them. they are you brothers and sisters. The ones that I know I'm proud to say are of the household of faith. Jesus hasn't rejected them. Why should you.
nearly 2000 years ago there was a group that many said could not come into the church. They would not be accepted by God because of certain cultural rules they did not obey. These people were the Gentiles and thank God the counsel in Jerusalem realized that everyone is saved by faith and not by being circumcised, washing hands, obeying the sabbath or staying away from unclean people.
There have been other examples through the times when the church, in trying to uphold the word of God, treated people as second class citizens instead of equals. Black people, interracial marriages, and women to name a few. that happened because of ignorance. Eventually we realised we were wrong.
the same is happening with gay and lesbian people. The legal system realised they weren't criminals because of their orientation, the medical world realised that it is not a pathology or illness. the only ones yet to realise are a number of christians.....but even those numbers are decreasing.
People who are obsessive about certain things often are like that because of their own private issues.
Jimmy Swaggart is a good example of that. Obsessed with preaching about the evils in the world like pornography but at the same time was visiting prostitutes.
I often wonder what might be the underlying cause of the rantings and ravings of some Christian activists. Sexual abuse in their early life, unresolved issues from a previous marriage, a personal sexual addiction, maybe secret hidden same sex attraction themselves and by attacking others they are subconsciously dealing with the think they hate in themselves.
One day we might find out the the truth and then they will look very silly indeed.
from anonymous
"I often wonder what might be the underlying cause of the rantings and ravings of some Christian activists."
Firstly, you are being far more private by not providing even a name, let alone an email address or anything else.
Second, I will tell you straight out--I write these things that I write out of love for you and others. If someone was blind and walking towards the edge of cliff, I would warn them!
I have had no sexual problems in the past, and harbour no hate towards those involved in homosexuality or any sexual immorality. If I was, yes, I would rightly have to repent. As it is, you have not come up with any argument whatsoever about the supposed positives of homosexuality.
"One day we might find out the the truth and then they will look very silly indeed."
We know the truth, and the truth has set people free -- I can give you a voice recording of a friend on mine who has been set free from homosexuality if you like. Free from what? From lust, from hate, and ultimately free from chains of the devil.
Free to be loving enough to tell others about wrong of homosexuality - and lieing, and stealing etc. No one is perfect, but does this mean we go, 'oh well, it's too hard' and keep sinning? No. Thankfully Jesus has more power than the devil--He has defeated the devil already--and we can call on him to save us.
Anonymous
The Gentiles still had to repent and TURN from their sin, just as the Jews did, and the Bible says NOTHING against black people – in fact it was Darwin, who lost his faith in God as the creator, who caused most of the modern day racial prejudice.
God has always judged people by their behaviour, not the colour of their skin.
Yes, people have done wrong things in the name of the church but they were always contrary to Scripture. Yet the Bible speaks of homosexuality as a sin from Genesis to Revelation – you cannot avoid sin by trying to put the blame on other people.
The Bible does not treat anyone as second class – Christ died for all, BUT that death was in vain if we can simply pick and chose what we call sin today.
Unless you can show clearly from Scripture that God has changed His mind then all the excuses will be in vain. Please go to 1 Cor. 6: 9-10 and read actual the words – they are VERY clear.
Stop blaming others and take responsibility by listening to GOD not other deceiving voices.
Lastly, like Nathan I have no problems with my sexuality and I too know many people who know God's healing power. I hope and will pray that you do too one day.
To Nathan Keen - your comment - 'To warn someone from impending doom I would have thought was loving, but perhaps we need to be more diverse and accommodating and not tell anyone about people who have been saved out from homosexuality, and not tell anyone about the facts of the dangers of sexual promiscuity, and not tell anyone about the abomination of which it is, but yeah--we should get alongside them and tell them how great they are and how much God loves them and make them feel less guilty. (end sarcasm)',
which you admit is sarcasm and is part of the reason we have to say sorry. There is no place for sarcasm from one who should be showing the love of Jesus. And to your comment as to whether we should be telling them how much God loves them, that is a resounding YES, because that was the heart of Jesus' message, about how much God loved them and us. It is not our place to 'make them feel guilty', but to love them as Jesus does. What right do you have to make another person feel guilty? Are your sins less offensive than theirs? It was just as much your sin and mine that sent Jesus to the cross as it was theirs.
Yes we need to warn people about a lost eternity, but then we need to lovingly walk with them until they are able to overcome their BC ways and live their lives anew in Jesus, not beat up on them because they aren't as good as us. Self righteousness is sin too you know.
Anonymous--perhaps I wasn't very clear.
My comment, "we should get alongside them and tell them how great they are and how much God loves them and make them feel less guilty" was also sarcastic, not in the sense that God doesn't love them, but in the sense of totally leaving out the characteristics of God namely of perfect justice, demand to give whole life to God (jealous), demand to be holy as He is holy, etc.
We don't condemn people--we leave this to God-- and so in this sense we don't make them feel guilty. However, they should feel guilty if they have rebelled against God's ways---as should I. If one persists in any sin and does not repent--it is the loving thing to do to warn them of impending judgment. I would rather that I be disliked by someone - or even hated - by telling them of what God will tell them later (hoping to save them from His wrath) than know that I should have, and have sinned myself from keeping it from them.
The major issue is--how much grace do you give, and how much do you lay down the law? To each person it would be different. To get back to the issue at hand, parading in the Mardi Gras is distinctly a far too biased (read: compromised) 'grace' position.
We need to expose the lies told to these people that they are stuck in this position and God thinks it okay that they are there, as well as being forceful in telling them their actions are ungodly and will lead to the lake of fire.
Btw, imho sarcasm has every right to be in a debate. :)
peter
Yes its Peter Stokes from SaltShakers - the snake lurking in the grass!
The reason they won't let you on Joy FM Peter is because you're a dick! An attention seeker and a bully to boot. You thrive on attention and get a thrill out of being intimidating. You are compulsively argumentative, biblically deaf and blind, and quite honestly need your backside kicked good and hard! I would gladly be first in line to have the honour of putting you in your place. But like the true coward you are you will run and hide when it looks like you are going to bleed!
Peter you have your own secrets to hide don't you. Angry about stuff that happened in your first marriage I believe.
Peter, its not too late for you to become gay and find freedom and right standing before the church ... hehehe. There is a place in the gay community for you Peter. You won't have to be girly and wear dresses you can just be yourself and live a normal life. You can even kiss and hug other men and build a life together.
Peter you really need to repent of your boasting and pride. You need to ask forgiveness of the entire gay population. Gay is NORMAL. Gay is here to stay. Gay marriage will happen. Gay folk will realise equality before the law and the The process toward normalisation is inevitable and you know that. Too much science is building and too many younger and older gay men and women have died because of people peddling your type of christianity. There is much blood upon your hands Peter and you will be held accountable. You have tried all kinds of quotes and articles to fuel your arguments but you it will be to no avail. Give up Peter that's all you can do. Your own secrets will come to light and when they do you are going to find out who you're friends really are.
Nathan said:
"We don't condemn people--we leave this to God-- and so in this sense we don't make them feel guilty."
If this is the case, then I am at a loss to understand what is objectionable about the 100Revs statement. It doesn't actually ask people to approve of homosexuality. It asks them to say that GLBT people have been treated badly. If the church had been leaving the guilt-making to God and genuinely coming alongside homosexual people, then the statement wouldn't have to be made.
And as to Mardi Gras... well, where would you like the statement to be made. In nice safe church halls where precious few homosexual people will hear it, only those who somehow have persevered in their faith and church attendance?
I have Christian friends who know about my homosexuality. They're the ones who still talk to me in church, still invite me to parties, and treat me the same as before they knew - with love. That includes people who believe homosexuality is wrong.
They're not the ones who go around message boards posting lengthy dissertations implying that homosexuality is somehow such a BAD sin that my salvation is at stake.
Trevor says,
"If the church had been leaving the guilt-making to God and genuinely coming alongside homosexual people, then the statement wouldn't have to be made."
Many people hated the prophets - incl. Jesus - and others who exposed wrongdoings in them, but these prophets were just the messengers.
The main theme in this statement that is objectionable is that you believe that "genuinely coming alongside homosexual people" is to be loving and diverse and accepting of them, in your understanding of those words.
However, firstly, there are a number of you actually "approv(ing) of homosexuality" and challenging the Scripture on this (but Peter had a great link). This is not loving, this is deception.
And following this, love would tell the full truth and nothing but the truth, but you simply don't want to listen to the stories of those people who have been set free from homosexuality.
And diversity and acceptance of all by Biblical standards, did not include at any time a lack of speaking up about the need to repent, or in other words to leave the life you are living and put your full trust in Jesus Christ--and then you will be washed and sanctified and cleansed.
Something that I would add to your other comments is that many Christians don't really understand the GLBT issue very well--some themselves believe the lie that it's not born out of your sinful nature, but from a gene, or, something you can't change.
Yes indeed, people who are homosexual need loving Christian friends, actively & genuinely supporting you as friends would--but hopefully they are actively helping you get out of that, keeping you accountable, and you yourself (firstly) actually know it is wrong. If you actually believed what the Bible says, without twisting it or believing only what you want to hear---then I myself would help you out. Indeed I have been trying.
However, unrepentance is simply unacceptable, and for whatever sin it is -- even lieing, gossiping, slander, pornography -- not acknowledging this is wrong nor turning your back to it leads only to one pathway: death. For eternity.
Do you want to lead people to diversity and acceptance and love, in your definitions of the words? Or in God's way? They are vastly different.
Read the STATEMENT again, Nathan. Not the comments on here, whether by me or anyone else. The 100Revs Statements does not endorse homosexuality or ask the signatories to regard it as not sinful.
You have very little idea what I believe about the Bible or how I interpret it, so please refrain from the more extravagant labelling. I would, however, be curious to know whether you require women to wear hats in church.
Nathan you seem hell bent on pointing out people's sins, believing that it is your duty as a Christian to save them before they go to hell.
Well I am going to practice what you preach.
I need to be sure that your are not in danger of the same judgement of destruction as Sodom was, as mentioned in Ezekial 16:49. I therefore need to ask you how much of your income you are spending on yourself, your comforts, your pleasures and your food intake, compared to how much you are spending on financially supporting and caring for the widows and the orphans (the poor)of this world?
Are you by any chance a little overweight which could indicate a tendency to gluttony. The Bible is very, very clear about the judgement to anyone committing these sins.
I also need to ask you how you are going with overcoming your self righteous orientation which we all know is a frightful sin before God? Or could it be that you haven't even repented of this sin yet? Or maybe you are relying on some loophole in the scriptures, that because you are genuinly trying to save sinners from going to hell that you can still enjoy some of your self rightousness without it getting too out of hand.
I'm sorry Nathan, but sin is sin and if you don't recognise it as such and repent of it then I'm afraid you are an abomination before God and you are going to hell for sure.
So as a Christian I have to stay on your case until you see the light and turn from your wicked ways!!!!!
Nathan this isn't a joke, I am quite serious. Look at the plank in your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in your brother's eye.
Hi Trevor.
You tell Nathan to read the statement BUT the statement is deceptive. The fact that Mr Venn-Brown is promoting this, used the Hope St Church as a base for his mardi gras activities last year, and that 100 Revs was launched at a freedom2be 'event’, it is not hard to assume that what the organisers really mean is "sorry we have not been accepting/welcoming of homosexuality".
The first ever blog Jenny wrote on this site said, " Apologise for those Christians who have failed to show love to those seeking help; Apologise for those who have allowed homosexual people to think it is ‘normal’ and especially for those who have said change cannot happen - but do NOT apologise for those who correctly see homosexuality as a sexual sin, just like adultery, heterosexual promiscuity and bestiality.”
Nobody, out of all the blogs that have been written onh this site, has been able to show that God has changed his mind about homosexuality. This is a site organised by Christians yet there is no Biblical substantiation for their apology or for marching in the mardi gras'.
Jesus met with sinners with one purpose, to change their lives. NOT to simply hang out or to apologise for His Fathers moral laws which they were breaking. He actually strengthened, rather than weakened, those laws. He said, 'even if you 'think' or lust after another women you commit adultery - why because the Jews had twisted the law to be about doing, not thinking. It is the same for all sin.
Your right Trevor, we need to stick to the facts and not make innuendoes.
On that point, it might have been nice if Andrew had done that - dealt with the issue rather than try to discredit me with his bile. Never mind, I am not worried about my reputation - I got over all that a long time ago.
As Nathan says - we want to help people find the truth, but if you/they do not want help, fine - just live your life and stop trying to make the rest of us accept the unacceptable.
Challenging sin is not self righteous, Anonymous, Jesus did it all the time. Neither Nathan or I or anyone else is saying we are sinless. The difference is that we do not go around being proud of it and trying to normalise it.
The Bible says "ALL have sinned" - the Christian walk is one challenge after the other as satan tries to win us over. It is only when surrender or give in to those challenges that we are in trouble. God calls that taking the 'broad way' - the way to hell.
Dear all,
I observing this thread now for quite a while and try to make sense of all this anti-gay postings here. Now I am not a religious person and English is not my mother tongue. Furthermore, I am not bible educated and think that might be the reason why I am unable to connect the dots here.
In my humble opinion I am however able to tell right from wrong. I do understand for example that steeling is not right. My parents taught me back in Germany. Once at the age of 5 or 6 I have stolen lollies from our local grocery store and was caught. Since I grew up in a rather small town it was just a matter of time until my parents got to know and my mother took me aside and explained to me: “What you have done was wrong!” Being 5 or 6 years old I asked my mum why it was wrong and she told me: “You can’t take another person's property without that person's consent”. Naively I asked the grocer the next time if I could have some lollies thinking if I ask he would give it to me but was told that I would have to pay for it. Makes sense, lesson learned. Later on my life, when I moved out from home, you can’t imagine how I glad I was to finally play loud music and host parties for all my friends until the police knocked on my door and I was kindly asked to turn the volume down. This one took me quite a while to figure out and the police had to knock on my door more than one time. I didn’t realize what all the fuzz was about then until I got my first job and had to get up at 5 o’clock in the morning while my neighbour was having a student party at the end of the semester on a Wednesday night. Suddenly I realized what kind of trouble I had caused to my poor neighbours a few years earlier when I was a student myself and how unfair it was of me. Here again lesson learned. Now I could continue this list towards infinity but being a responsible person I don’t want to take up too much of your valuable time. However I should like to ask for some clarification on points that I might have missed because as much as I try I am unable to figure out why being homosexual could possibly be wrong.
I am a gay male and have been in monogamous relationship with my partner for quite some time now. When I met him the first time and looked into his eyes they spoke a language I never heard of. The words were unspoken yet I could hear them and ever since then I knew he was the person I want to spend my life with. We are living a modest, fulfilled and meaningful life together, are good citizens and good neighbours. I have learned my lesson as mentioned earlier. We are doing everything to make each other the happiest persons on the face of the earth and we care and look after each other. Yes we love each other and I struggle to see how caring for my partner and loving him could possibly be wrong and how it could have a negative impact on anyone in anyway. The fact that stealing is wrong and the principle of fairness have a deep fundamental truth attached to them (just imagine the absurdity to live a life on opposite terms) whereas to say homosexuality is wrong lacks this truth and the very nature of our so called homosexual lifestyle and/or our homosexuality makes it clear: Homosexuality can not be wrong! You might fight it and argue just the way some people do here but you won’t change the way it is. Or you might want to take this opportunity to make a step towards reconciliation. It is entirely up to you and either way is fine with me but to be honest I think reconciliation would create a better world and I don’t need the bible to know what God would prefer.
In this spirit Good Night!
KD
To all those who quote verses from the Bible in support of their viewpoint, please remember:
It is not one book, but many books, written by different hands at different times in different languages.
Much of it existed as oral tradition for centuries before anyoine wrote it down, and so the words and the stories changed repeatedly over time before it was 'fixed' in this way.
The tales have been translated, not directly from the original language to English, but through several linguistic filters, each one further changing and distorting the meaning and understanding.
Words change their meaning over time, and therefore a word which meant one thing a thousand years ago may have changed its meaning many times in the interim.
All this is to say that we cannot be sure of anything written in the Bible: it is entirely a matter for interpretation. Nothing in it can be taken literally, or out of context, or out of its historical context.
We must all therefore be very very careful when asserting what any passage in the Bible actually means. Only God knows that. We can only dimly apprehend, and, being human, will probably get it wrong most of the time.
Peter,
It seems slightly incongruous to agree that we should 'stick to facts' precisely after you've claimed to know the 'hidden agenda' behind the statement.
Yes, some of the organisers of this event believe homosexuality is not a sin. But they are not asking signatories to agree to that. They are, if you like, asking for people to at least agree the issue has been handled badly. But no doubt you regard this as the 'thin end of the wedge'.
I would also be interested on your view on whether women should wear hats in church, by the way.
anonymous,
thank you for your kind regards in "practic(ing) what (I) preach". The things you talk about are good--no seriously, I am not sarcastic: look at 2 Cor 13:5, which says to examine yourself.
However, your comments have absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand. I would be a hypocrite if I practiced homosexuality (this "plank in your own eye" you speak of), and yes, then I would need to repent.
Question for you--does it immediately make me self-righteous if I speak out against a moral issue? I think you need to check your logic there.
2nd anon (on Biblical authority),
The statement is made by a Christian group, and therefore your comments have no meaning here.
KD says,
"I don't need the bible to know what God would prefere"
again, as this (100Revs) statement is by Christians, which is where we get our truth from, your own definition of 'good' and 'loving' here simply have no relevance.
As for seeing results of this lifestyle, and the wrongness of it apart from the Bible, then check out the research document '21 reasons why gender matters' which I can give you a free copy of if you email me your postal address.
Trevor,
thankyou for your curiousity. Have a look at
www.gotquestions.org/head-coverings.html for a good explanation of your off-topic question.
--------
Hmm.. there does seem to be a lack of intelligent response to the arguments put forth.
Ultimately, what is God's view/definition of love?
Dear Nathan,
I really admire you for your stamina. You have a position and you fight for it no matter what and regardless of what the facts are. I wish I had a brother like you when I was younger who tries to convince my parents that it is not all that bad when I try to steel lollies even though as it actually bad behaviour. On the other hand I really feel little sorry and I think you need my help for you are fighting for a truth that does not exist .But now worries being a responsible person you can always asked me for advise to get the facts rights. Now Nathan read carefully what follows and , for a change, try to actually listen instead of only hearing people out.
As I said I know that many people say that what I am doing is actually wrong. It’s just that no- one (and you are the best example) is able to explain to me in plain English what exactly is wrong with what I am doing. If it is that bad and sinful what I am doing then how is it that no-one can give me an explanation that fits into one or two sentences. And how is it that if people try to explain it to me in one or two sentences that I can easily disprove them without needing scientific support? You for example, instead of explaining to me, like my mother did when I tried to steal, feed me a “research paper” from a more then dubious organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narth#Scandals ) that claims to therapy homosexuality.
Now Nathan I know that the following sentences will hurt but you have to be brave and I want you to know that I will be there for you no matter what. Can you try to explain to me where exactly is the sense in trying to cure a disorder that not even is one? It’s a bit like assigning a consistent truth value to a liar paradox. Senseless, circular, time-wasting etc. And Nathan if you really use your intellect (and I know you are very intelligent) you have to admit just how pointless it is. I know how hard it can be to admit you are wrong especially when you know all the facts are against you. It is like a spiral you behaved and talked yourself into based on false assumptions and in order to not be looked at as total flop(even though you know you are on a sinking ship) you try to defend your position. I guess that is your last resort and as I said I admire your stamina. But let me tell you this Nathan. I will not hold it against you and one day, very soon, (be brave) when you will have to admit that you were wrong I will invite you for Coffee on Oxford Street together with my partner and we will look back and smile. And if then there will be the one or the other dubious organisation that tries to therapy you from heterosexuality because it is considered to add stress and density to our planet then Nathan I will protect and fight for you using my intellect and not false assumptions.
One last thing to think about Nathan, Gender is actually considered socially constructed and society changes at fast pace.
“Honest disagreement is sometimes a good sign of progress”
Kind regards,
KD
Nathan, my question was far from off-topic. It goes to the very heart of the question of whether or not your view is an INTERPRETATION of Scripture, just like mine.
You have just demonstrated that you are happy to interpret 1 Corinthians 11 in a cultural context and to interpret the word 'covering' to mean 'hair'.
Yet there are Christians who firmly and sincerely believe that the teaching in 1 Cor 11 about women needing to cover their heads is an ongoing requirement, and that the passage can't possibly be referring to hair (must all men shave their heads?). See for example http://users.bigpond.net.au/joeflorence/hgmheadcovering.htm
These Christians would surely accuse you of twisting the Bible and believing only what you want to hear. It doesn't suit you that a woman with an uncovered head is breaking God's word, so you explain away the text.
I urge you to tell your Christian sisters (in love of course) to repent and to comply with the incredibly easy requirement to wear a hat in church. It would be unloving not to tell them what the Bible really says on this topic.
None of the above is sarcastic. I am simply asking you to either (a) be consistent, or (b) admit that your view on homosexuality is an interpretation, albeit a traditional and widely-followed one.
Link was truncated by Blogger. I have inserted a space this time.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/
joeflorence/hgmheadcovering.htm
Nathan,
I just wanted to add that I was not sarcastic with what I said either . It's just that I think you are misled and need some help and clarification and I want to offer you this help.
regards,
KD
One of the interesting thing about these posts is the lack of rigor and actual knowledge.
People Cite the Human Genome project - showing lamentable knowledge both the current state of research in this field and the Genome project itself.
People cite the scriptures without any understanding of the original languages or context.
In the last 100 years - scientific opinion - medical, psychological, and psychiatric has swung from believing Homosexuality was a a peversion and a choice to KNOWING its a natural event. That is it occurs in nature - documented in many animals.
The reason this has happened is that - despite the fact it was an unpopular view, the evidence is overwhelming and not just from one branch of science but from many.
Now just as some believed that acceptance that the earth orbits the sun, and that the earth was round, and that god didnt create non white races to be slaves for the white races would all threaten the very foundations of christianity, in the end - truth won.
NOW this is a complex area. Many people have studied it for years. BY FAR the majaority of studies (by well over a factor of 100's to 1) show that homosexuality is not a choice.
We now know there is not one reason people are homosexual. For example - a mother who is highly stressed when carrying a child - is HIGHLY likely to have a homosexual child. Thats not a choice of the child.
Its also clear that there are several genes for homosexuality.
We also know that the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be gay. Across all races and cultures. (Fraternal Birth order effect) Now I think it would be quite mean of god to say Im going to design a human nature that says the more older brothers I have, the more likely I will CHOOSE to be gay - and that when I choose that - I will go to hell. Doesnt make sense to me.
Now we dont know what all our genes do. But anyone who understands genetics understands that we now know that protein signals that turn genes on and off are possibly more important than then the genes themselves. We also know that genes often combine to have unexpected effects. Classic case is the sickle hemoglobin gene. One genes will help protect you from malaria and is a life saver. Two genes will kill you. None the less, natural selection favours this genes because those who dont have it are far more likely than those that do. The point is that the side effect of it is incidental.We dont know the mechanism by which gravity works but we know a great deal about it and buil skyscrapers and planes all based on that.
WE dont know all the genes and proteins that make someone gay (and its likely there are several paths.) Its quite possible that homosexuality is in some cases a side effect of a combination of othe genes. These are not known yet. Not even close
There are however many hundreds of studies that show without doubt ain incredibly strong genetic link (for example the left handedness, counter clockwise hair whorls, different hearing in lesbians and so on) This is a mathematical certainty and if you deny that, you deny the science that makes television work, that keeps jets in the sky, that designs your mobile phones and so on.
To deny it merely shows you as uneducated.
The truth may not be pleasant but only luddites cite old or debunked science that they dont understand to cling to lies.
I say this however. WE are taught that good intentions are not enough to keep you from hell. When you are judged by your creator, how will you justify having turned from the truth ? I wonder where those who upheld slavery will spend eternity and I wonder where those who, without study of the facts, persecute and harm our homosexual brothers and sisters who are that way because of gods creation.
No matter how you misquote scripture or cite junk science it doesnt hide the lack of obedience to love your neighbour and smacks of throwing the first stone. Me - I choose to obey the commands Jesus gave us and seek truth !
Nathan I think you miss the point about the 'plank in your eye'. This verse is not saying beware of pointing out someone else's sin if the same sin is happening in you, it says beware of pointing out someone else's sin if 'SIN' is happening in you, that is why the sin of self righteousness follows because by ignoring or even denying the sin in your own life and still pointing out the sin in someone else's life, you automatically act out the sin of self righteousness.
I don't doubt that you are a very sincere person and genuinly think you are doing right by loudly declaring to all homosexuals that they are sinning and will go to hell if they don't repent and turn from their wicked ways. Good on you for standing up for what you believe, even in the face of such opposition. BUT my concern is that even though you say you are doing it in love, you are in fact causing untold damage to those who find themselves bound in this condition. I know you say that many homosexuals have been 'set free', but I wonder what statistics you are relying on and how honest and up to date they are?
There are many, many people who have declared their freedom because they are acting in faith following a time of repentance and 'healing'. However a huge percentage of these same people have finally crumbled, admitting that they realy were not set free and that their orientation is still as real as it ever was. These people do one of several things depending on how long they have been trying and who they have around them to support them. They either commit (attempt) suicide because they just can't see any other way out or they give up the whole 'Christian' thing and run blindly into the whole homosexual scene, or they pick themselves up, repent again, seek more prayer and continue in the enormous struggle to overcome their orientation. There are some who have chosen to just live a life of celebacy because it seems much easier than all of the above. But even that choice is filled with constant pain and struggle to conquer a natural sex drive.
You have said you know of several people who have successfully changed their orientation, but I wonder if they are being absolutely honest or if they are keeping secret the battle that is still raging within them because the heterosexuals around them would start on the 'sin' thing again and because they can't bear that tirade any more they just keep silent and pretend that everything is OK.
If you took the time to hear the stories of so many homosexuals who have struggled for many, many years to do the 'right' thing, and if you would hear their heart in the matter you would know they are not being rebellious and thumbing their nose at God. Quite the contrary, they are desperate in a seemingly impossible situation where they are the target for all zealous Christians who are not functioning in love.
What I am trying to help you see Nathan is NOT that you are wrong to declare what you think to be right or wrong, BUT to do it in such a way that you understand what the hearer of your message is going to have to go through.
I don't know if you are married and have children or not, but if you are, try to imagine that in order to follow Jesus you had to now give up your wife, your children, your sex life, most of your friends, your way of living, maybe where you live etc, etc.
Instead of just hitting these people with scripture, be aware of the cost to them if they hear and believe what you are saying. Try to have the same compassion for them that Jesus had for you when, knowing that you couldn't pay for your own sins, He did it for you.
Also, see people as individuals, not as a mass group. Just because there are a lot of homosexual people who flaunt themselves outrageously, and deliberatley do the most offensive things in public and especially in the Mardi Gras, doesn't mean that all homosexuals are the same. All of my homosexual friend are just like you and me in that they want a loving monogamous partnership, to establish a home and family and to live a quiet and peaceful life. They are not out every night looking for sex, or having sex orgies with multiple partners.
A lot of them have a deep craving for God and have tried for years to 'do the right thing', and every time they have stumbled the church has come down on them. Even one who is living a celebate life has been denied the opportunities of ministry in the church that heterosexuals are free to function in. After a major break down she now lives with the constant thought of suicide just to end the misery.
Can you not see that your militant approach is what makes suicide more and more attractive to such broken people? Ask yourself if some of their blood is on your hands, because even though what you are doing might be right, the way you are doing it is wrong.
KD, one of the reasons that no one has been able to convince you so far is because you are using a different measuring guide to the one that a Christian would use. You mentioned in an earlier statement that you are not a religious person and not Bible educated. In order to connect the dots you have to be working from the same page. It is a bit like trying to understand the thinking of a militant Muslim when you havn't read or believed in the Koran.
While most of us who have been active in this site disagree with Nathan, we none the less all believe in God and in the Bible as being the Word of God and therefore study it to find out God's will for our lives.
The difficulty though is our interpretation of the Bible. Homosexuality isn't the only subject that has caused many debates over the years and even for churches to split with new denominations forming.
The biggest difficulty in the arguement for or against homosexuality is the way the Bible has been interpreted over the years. For example one of the six scriptures used to condemn homosexuality is 1 Cor 6:9.
Following are the renderings from several translations. Firstly if we read the New King James version of 1Cor 6:9 it says
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites".
You can see that if someone is relying solely on the NKJ then it is very clear that homosexuals or sodomites will not inherit the kingdom of God.
However the problem is that the New King James translators chose the word homosexuals and sodomites as their interpretation of what the original script says, BUT that was their interpration and not necessarily correct.
Now look at what the King James version (an older version) says
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind".
Then there is the Contemporary English version "No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual".
The New Century version "Those who sin sexually, worship idols, take part in adultery, those who are male prostitutes, or men who have sexual relations with other men, those who steal, are greedy, get drunk, lie about others, or rob—these people will not inherit God's kingdom".
The American Standard version "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men".
Young's Literal Translation "neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites".
The Wycliffe New Testament "neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do lechery with men", and finally Darby's Translation which is highly revered by scholars says "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men".
So you can see KD that we Christians have a lot of stuff to work through to understand what God really said and because the New King James version, (the first one I quoted), is one of the most popular and widely used versions today and has used the word homosexual, it confuses most Christians because they never bother searching it out any further to find if there is another way to look at it.
All through the centuries Christians have struggled to find the truth of the Word in order to deal with troublesome issues. For instance in 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul tells Timothy "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent". This verse has caused enormous difficulties over the years for women who knew they were called by God to preach, teach and instruct in the church, but were stopped by men who stood on this verse. Thankfully there were many who saw that there had to be more to the subject than just that verse so they searched the scriptures more fully and had continual discussion regarding reason behind Paul's statement and also studied what the cultural contexts of the time were, until finally, thankfully, most denominations of today agree that it is perfectly alright, and God's will, for women to be preachers and teachers in an equal role to men.
Unfortunately for homosexuals, the same effort has not been put into searching out all the scriptures, discovering the cultural context, and discerning the translaters paradigm in order to get a clearer understanding of God's perfect will.
Hopefully from the above you will at least see why you haven't yet been able to join the dots. In order to understand our debating you first have to understand the foundation from which we debate, and if you don't have a desire to do what is right in the sight of God then obviously all of our debating is just wasted words.
You and your partner have obviously developed a very happy, monogamous relationship together for many years, so I can understand why you see our discussions as nothing but gobbledegook. I can also see that if you were the slightest bit interested in finding this God that we love and serve, you could easily be put off your search by the way people like Nathan present the requirements of the Gospel.
I hope my explanation is a clearer than mud.
I just wanted to post a quick note to thank you for apologising to Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transgender people across Australia for the damage caused by various churches’ negative attitudes towards these communities. This negativity, discrimination, and homophobia has undoubtedly caused immeasurable harm to many thousands of GLBT people, although I haven’t experienced it directly (as I have never really been affiliated with any particular church/religious body), I know many people who have.
I commend you for taking this action, and hope that it provides a way forward for mending the bridges between GLBT communities and various churches/religious organisations.
Anonymous said... (Which one? Who knows – it would be more honest if people used their names)
“One of the interesting thing about these posts is the lack of rigor and actual knowledge.”
Sadly, you then went on to suggest many unproven hypotheses or theories are ‘facts’.
For instance you say, “In the last 100 years - scientific opinion - medical, psychological, and psychiatric has swung from believing Homosexuality was a a perversion and a choice to KNOWING its a natural event. That is it occurs in nature - documented in many animals.”
Some scientific “opinion” might well say something, but unless there is actual scientific ‘evidence’ it simply remains someone’s opinion.
Unfortunately, ‘Anonymous’ gives us anonymous claims because he/she fails to give any evidence or link to any research.
The fact is, the majority of that scientific opinion came from homosexuals, has never been replicated and much of it has now been proved false.
Kinsey used paedophiles and prison inmates for his extremely flawed research and exaggerated statistics.
Dr Dean Hamer - X Chromosome: a homosexual whose work has been totally discredited.
Simon Le Vay - Hypothalamus: Le Vay is homosexual and admitted his study was flawed and inconclusive.
Bailey and Pillard’s study - Twins: Bailey is a gay rights activist. Pillard is a homosexual – their ‘selected’ sample and fudged figures have long been proved inconclusive. Other, more recent twins studies, including one in Australia, totally refuted his findings.
As for the ‘psychological / psychiatric swing’ The psychological illness tag was eventually removed in 1974 NOT after sound research but ONLY after repeated protests and disruption of the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) annual meetings by homosexual activists.
NO Psychiatric study has ever proved homosexuals cannot change.
I strongly suggest you look up Neil E. Whitehead, Ph.D. Scientific Research Consultant Author, ‘My Genes Made Me Do It!’ It is downloadable from http://www.mygenes.co.nz
As for animals displaying homosexual tendencies – some do, but the actual evidence is scratchy at best and the cause is unknown but most likely environmental.
Nevertheless, HUMANS are NOT animals – comparisons are irrelevant. Some animals eat their young – does that mean it is natural? Maybe, but does that mean humans can do it?
Using animals to condone human behaviour is degrading to humans – and possibly even to the animals.
Whilst agreeing that in many (I would not go as far as to say most) homosexuals it is not a choice to feel attracted to someone of the same sex, it is certainly a choice to act out those feelings. Because the homosexual sex act, using the anus rather than a vagina and in the case of lesbians using a toy instead of a penis, it is impossible to call it natural. (Even for animals by the way).
Lastly, let’s take a look at the Fraternal Birth order effect.
I suggest you look at the Danish study by Frisch and Hviid, 2006. They could not find the FBO effect in a sample of 2 million Danes. Then there is a recent study by Australian researchers McConaghy et al (2006) – their findings suggest environmental not biological explanations.
There certainly are different characteristics of personality that develop genetically and hormonally during pregnancy, many are clearly hereditary, we often look and act like our parents. but to suggest they go as far as defining someone’s behavioural tendencies in adulthood has far more to do with self justification than any evidence.
Peter,
“Whilst agreeing that in many (I would not go as far as to say most) homosexuals it is not a choice to feel attracted to someone of the same sex, it is certainly a choice to act out those feelings”
Ok Peter I agree. But then acting heterosexual feelings out is according to your definition a choice too. Would you fight those feelings if I am going to tell you that it is unnatural?
“Because the homosexual sex act, using the anus rather than a vagina and in the case of lesbians using a toy instead of a penis, it is impossible to call it natural. (Even for animals by the way).”
Well Peter I have to tell you that my partner and I are not practising those techniques you described. What is our sexual act then? A little bit homosexual?
“As for the ‘psychological / psychiatric swing’ The psychological illness tag was eventually removed in 1974 NOT after sound research but ONLY after repeated protests and disruption of the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) annual meetings by homosexual activists.
NO Psychiatric study has ever proved homosexuals cannot change.”
Is that all it takes to change the mind of people of this organization? Repeated protests and disruptions? I would be interested to hear the opinion of the people who work for that organization on your point. That is just ridiculous Peter and the most unqualified comment I have ever heard.
One last thing: “Nevertheless, HUMANS are NOT animals”
I am afraid you are wrong Peter. In the biological sense we are very well animals (http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Animal#Etymology)
cheers,
KD
*cough* *cough* If God didn't want homosexuals to have anal sex, he certainly put the prostate gland in a funny place *cough* *cough*
KD,
what I have been trying to show you and others is that homosexuality is a disorder. If it weren't, of course it wouldn't make you sense, as you say. If you actually wanted to have a look at the evidence, as is put forth already here--you can.
"especially when you know all the facts are against you". Well, exactly which facts are you presenting? And why aren't you easily arguing against the above (and below, now) evidence against your position?
"Gender is actually considered socially constructed"
Again, sources please.
As people are generally not into logic and just make assersions here:
Gender is actually male or female FULLSTOP
Trevor--no, the question of hats or hair is off topic, because while there may be many other things that the church today has wrong views on, that is not the topic at hand.
Yes, you are definately right that it is the interpretation of the Scripture that is the issue. There are many other topics of discussion following this line--you are right, Trevor.
Have a read of Matthew Henry's commentary (probably go for the 'concise' one) on studylight.org on these issues for solid interpretation from someone outside the western civilisation as it is today.
ANd thank you, anonymous, for your concern that although i'm right, i'm doing it in a wrong way. Overriding all your points is the major issue of humanity's sin, and our struggle with it. Yes, I agree that we as churches tend to wrongly treat homosexuals in that we don't even try to understand their conflicting internal emotions/thoughts etc. but tend to ostracise them. So to those who are homosexual and are struggling--we must show grace, and not "just (hit) these people with scripture".
The difficulty arises when people assert wrongly that it is an orientation which cannot be changed. Here, I must be stronger, and take a more laying down the law approach.
Regardless of what the statement is saying, by going to the Mardi Gras - particularly because of these "offensive things in public and especially in the Mardi Gras" - the GLBT cause for wide acceptance of homosexuality _will_ be promoted.
I am being loving in exposing the lie, and offering hope that there can be transformation.
Just because there may be many cases where people have 'become' heterosexual and then gone back to homosexual tendencies does not disprove those that have been freed from the grips of sin. This is the same issue - this struggle - with alcoholics, with drug addictions, with other sexual problems. Just because many won't give over their entire lives to Jesus and put their full trust on Him and live His way doesn't prove anything. However, not all addictions go away instantly for everyone, and we will always struggle with sin, but this does not mean we give up or we reinterpret the Scripture to fit our comfort.
If people genuinely want to live for God and can't get out of homosexuality, then absolutely we need to support them. Just please don't feed them lies--this is simply allowing your friends to have open access to the devil - being the Father of Lies - and gaining his stronghold on them.
Hi KD you said "Ok Peter I agree. But then acting heterosexual feelings out is according to your definition a choice too.”
YES, of course it is a choice to act or not act on heterosexual urges and that takes a lot of self discipline. No one suggests that is easy, especially in today’s sex soaked culture.
The Bible tells people that God's way is abstinence (self discipline) until marriage and then faithfulness (self discipline) within marriage. By the way it is still the ONLY 100% 'safe sex' against unwanted pregnancy and the safest way to avoid sexually transmitted diseases.
KD then says “Would you fight those feelings if I am going to tell you that it is unnatural?"
You could tell me that it is unnatural KD but the ‘evidence’ does not support the statement. So the statement is wrong .
The FACTS show us that homosexuality IS natural - the species would /could not continue without it. Making love God’s way is safe, productive and fun too.
This is the perhaps the greatest evidence about the naturalness of heterosexuality.
What you do or do not do in private KD is your business. But remember, If you claim to be a Christian Jesus warned that even thinking about adultery meant you had already sinned.
Therefore, if, as the Bible states, homosexuality and heterosexual promiscuity are a sin, even thinking about either one is lust and that means you have sinned. So once you let it goe past the first thought, unless you immediately repent of it, it is sin. Thankfully, asking God to help you not to do it again and meditating on His word can help overcome such thoughts. BUT if you do not repent you are harbouring the thought and it will inevitably grow into actions.
As for the animals – who trusts ‘wikipedia’? Besides that is using the Latin and the Bible was written in Hebrew.
I would rather trust God – He says HE made all the animals and then, from the dust of the ground he made Adam and Eve – a male and female notice. Not surprising then that we fit together so well – naturally you could say!!!
OOOPS
when I said "The FACTS show us that homosexuality IS natural..." of course I was talking about heterosexuality - probably obvious as there is no way Homosexuals can naturally reproduce anything.
Nathan, do you or do you not agree that when you make statements like "the Bible clearly says", you are interpreting?
If not, why not?
Trevor,
of course I am interpreting!
However, there does seem to be a lot of reinterpreting done here, with the assumption that homosexuality is normal, which just simply cannot be assumed.
Neither, Nathan, can it be assumed that homosexuality is ABnormal.
I assumed for many years that it was. It wasn't until I was prepared to consider that maybe it wasn't that I was actually willing to look at the Bible passages we are all focusing on, and examine them. And realise that they don't necessarily say what I'd assumed they say.
In fact, most of the serious examinations of the topic that I've read, both 'pro-gay' AND 'anti-gay', come down to a reading of Romans Ch.1 - even many of the 'anti-gay' scholars and theologians agree that none of the other passages can safely be said to condemn homosexuality per se, rather than particular practices.
One passage. That's all. Embedded in one of THE most confusing and difficult to interpret sections of any of Paul's letters.
That's not a lot of basis to go around telling people that God thinks one of the most fundamental parts of their being and personality is sinful.
Heterosexuality is not normal, its just more common. We are all normal.
Trevor,
you say "none of the other passages can safely be said to condemn homosexuality per se, rather than particular practices."
you would do well to note that not every practice of thievery is condemned--i'm sure you could make a case for downloading mp3's, or robbing a bank, or avoiding taxes from this line of logic. However, the Bible says simply "do not steal" and immediately condemns all forms of stealing. Same for lieing--all lies, whether 'white' lies, or black lies, or pink--all are condemned with the one verse.
I hope you can see the fallacy of your logic here. And so, there are indeed many passages that condemn it. However, if only still one passage said it was wrong---who are you to say you cannot understand it? It is written plainly enough.
For other theologians works' check out www.summit.org/resource/
essay/ethics&bio-ethics/
Anon, you could also argue using your own way: Non-murderer's are not normal, just more common. We are all normal.
I’m excited by the 100Revs concept and delighted that a couple of Christian ministers had the guts to make it happen. Well done! I just wish more “followers” of Jesus Christ could put aside their prejudices to recognise that the heart of the Gospel is love, the message of Christ’s crucifixion forgiveness and neither gives room for condemnation or rejection from anyone who purports to be a Christian.
Sometimes we are so good at making arguments but miserable at demonstrating the power of love.
Probably the most powerful story of the hurt experienced by those in the GLTB community is told by Tony Campolo in a public debate with his wife Peggy. Tony is a well-known American pastor, author, and public speaker. His views whilst supportive of GLTB people fall short of agreeing with anything other than heterosexual expressions of sex and that within marriage. His wife takes a more liberal view. It’s refreshing to read the whole transcript. Despite disagreeing strongly on key points the couple maintain warmth of love and commitment for each other through it all.
To read it, click on the link http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm.
The story that moves me most can be found by searching in the article for the word “Brooklyn” to find the story of the funeral of a gay man and the pain of his friends.
As a Christian I am deeply saddened by the condemning stance of those who, like the Scribes and Pharisees can only quote Scriptures to back their arguments and can’t see that it’s not about the Bible, nor their interpretation of it, but it is about a four letter word LOVE. It’s about what Jesus Christ represents, the character of a God who sees the failing of humanity to love one another and is prepared to take the blame for that upon himself in a violent and cruel death upon a cross.
His “Father Forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing” is I’m sure more about the Scribes and Pharisees who put him there than about the ones they condemned.
Ah, but at least our world is improving. The fact that we’re having this debate now and the fact that a few Christian ministers are prepared to support this apology and even march in the Mardi Gras is testament to that.
To my brothers and sisters in the GLTB community I’m sorry that I didn’t come out years earlier to publicly affirm my belief that God loves you with a passion that doesn’t demand you change, but asks you to love more generously. Please forgive the voices raised against you. They don’t at this point have the capacity to understand better or act differently.
Nathan said:
"However, if only still one passage said it was wrong---who are you to say you cannot understand it? It is written plainly enough."
Truly, one of the most bizarre things I've ever read. Everything is plain, just because Nathan said so. My, how the Pope must envy your moral authority.
You have no empathy whatsoever. And I think that's precisely what the 100Revs are apologising for - the church's lack of empathy. And I applaud them for doing it.
And that's the end of the conversation for me. I'd rather share my thoughts with people who might genuinely be interested in them.
PS Using the same logic... there are MANY passages in the Bible that condemn heterosexual activity.
Well said David Ayliffe, I couldn't agree with you more.
David Ayliffe says,
"the heart of the Gospel is love, the message of Christ’s crucifixion forgiveness and neither gives room for condemnation or rejection from anyone who purports to be a Christian."
Yes we know the Greatest Commandments are to love God and love others--but does this mean that if our brother is in sin that we do not attempt to pull him out of it?
Does "love" mean that we just accept in our common speech, lieing, gossiping, slander--just so we won't be offending anyone?
Campolo's talk is just another person coming from the perspective that you cannot change homosexuality--and this has been dealt with before.
You talk about love, and about how Jesus represents that, especially through his self-sacrifice, but in the sentence before say "it's not about the Bible". However, where do we get the story about Jesus and His life and his crucifixion from? The Bible. Where do we understand God from? The Bible. Where do look to for how to live as a Christian? The Bible. Where does the definition of the word love come from as to what our love should be? The Bible. "God is love".
Read 1 John, esp. 1 John 3.
Trevor, the plainness is in the direct speech. Take for instance another plain statement- the great commission to go and preach. But many shun this. A stand still must be taken.
Jesus had no tolerance for the Pharisees because they did not follow the Law and the Prophets as they were supposed to. If you but recognised that you needed to get out of homosexuality, and indeed out of sin (yes, even heterosexual immorality), then as a Christian I can and should give you the opportunity to receive Jesus' light and life. It is never ever given to anyone, however, who does not fully trust in Jesus and put every sin behind him, firmly nailed on the cross.
"I'd rather share my thoughts with people who might genuinely be interested in them."
Trevor, I am never interested in accepting the practice of sin, as you are. If anyone is not interested in leaving sin behind, Jesus is not interested in you. Go and read the Bible yourself and see.
Oh Nathan how wrong you are. Jesus is always interested in us, no matter how much we sin. He loved us while we were yet His enemies and He will never stop loving us for all eternity.
He doesn't like it when we sin, but He always, always loves us and is waiting with arms open wide to receive us. In fact He even goes looking for the lost sheep, not being happy to just wait and hope it can find its way home.
I pray that you will experience a really huge dose of the love that Jesus has for you, so that you can start to see things with the eyes of Grace and not the Law which kills.
I would just like to register my support for the statement. While there is diversity within Christian ranks over sexual practice I think we should be able to say with one voice tht violence and hatred is never justified - and discrimination is surely not what Jesus would do.
thankyou for doing this. As a gay woman its appreciated :)
Looking at some of the comments on this blog i can see theres a long way to go....
by the way - the assumption that all GLBT are sexually promiscuous is a stereotype really. Yes there are definately people like that, but not all of us, and not me.
I refuse to condemn homosexual people but the sin of homosexuality is WRONG.
If I recall correctly, it was Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve.
After reading a few of these comments, from both "sides" of things, I'm saddened that such catty nastiness has come upon this site.
When I heard about the 100 Revs group I thought to myself that while this was no doubt a genuine apology for wrong treatment in the past, it was not an affirmation of one's right to be themselves and be in communion with Christ and the church (to whichever chuch you belong). In this case, it seems to me to be more about asuaging certain people's guilt over past wrongs than about true healing or acceptance.
I am gay, I am Catholic, I am loved unconditionally.
The carefully worded apology was no doubt designed not to put church officials offside, and at the same time to provide an apology of sorts to the Gay & Lesbian community. My friends and I do not feel we have been apologised to at all, and the church officials no doubt are not happy with your involvement in the parade, so it seems that no one is happy with your efforts.
This apology was meant to be radical in a way, I think, but radicalism is about taking a side.
No doubt I will be attacked as a wicked homosexual sinner. But you do not know my sins, as I do not know yours, so don't bother.
Peter Stokes
I say bile for bile ...
Interestingly Peter never answered the my assertion that there were things wrong in his first marriage ... how convenient Peter. Certainly along the way life has shaped your seditious position.
Nathan and Peter keep banging the same old drum in the hope of saving a few souls ... bolix!
Factually, Nathan is gay but in denial.
Peter Stokes is a washed up thug, a Christian bully looking for easy targets ... his brand of christianity is about scaring people into god's kingdom. His low life form of hard right social justice will fade in due course. It's just a matter of time. He is timid and weak in his biblical literacy but wants us to believe he has the facts - HARDLY! A blind monkey can the man is full of hatred and deception. he gathers around him others with itching ears to peddle his hatred and vile message.
His reputation is - well he really needs to work on it. He is the biblical version of a noisy gong that the apostle Paul spoke of in his letters.
I wash my hands of Peter - a lost cause and hater of all things good in the sight of God
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