Saturday, February 2, 2008

Mardi Gras Morals

A couple of people have raised their concern that involvement in the Mardi Gras may be seen (by church members and perhaps by the Mardi Gras organisers) as an affirmation of the promiscuity and lewdness that are part of the parade.

This is certainly not our intention. The Mardi Gras remains the iconic Gay and Lesbian event and as such is the best way of communicating with the GLBT community as a whole.

So while there is much of the Mardi Gras which disturbs us, it is the best place to communicate with those who we are trying to reach - a strategy that was familiar to Jesus (Matt 11:19; Luke 5:27; John 8:3-11).

38 comments:

Andrew Jones said...

Mike I like what you have written but you are far too kind!

Bugger what the church thinks or how it looks ... its really about the heart of all who participate. I believe God is looking at the hearts of each of us. He is the one weighing up our motives and agendas and that's all that really counts.

For far too long the bloody church and its gutless leaders have retreated to the safety of its four church walls and locked it self away from the world. The shepherds have gone astray!

I applaud your efforts mate and you are one of the very few gems in the rough. Your heart is good and your intentions are noble. I believe you have God's favour over that of the church moaners. What's more important is what God wants ... and it ain't always popular, glitzy, or safe.

The guts you have shown and your determination to follow through shine with God's love and light. Some of these other blind numbskulls would do well to open there eyes and put their political manouvering aside

go get 'em tiger!

Mardi Gras welcomes you all

Anonymous said...

Probably the only people who really understand what the parade is about are those that have participated. The perception most people have has only been gained by limited TV coverage or pictures on the front page of a newspaper.

If people are concerned that by marching they are promoting immorality, then these are some of the groups who marched last year. I guess one could ask if these groups are promoting immorality or is this more about a diverse community.

Twenty 10 GLBT Youth support
Vintage Men inc Melbourne
Rainbow Babies and Kids
NSW Police
NSW Rural Fire Service
ANZ Bank
Ambulance Service of NSW
Mature age gays
Freedbon2b[e)
Dayenu Jewish Group
Cross campus Student float (Educational institutions)
Sydney Gay and Lesbian Choir
City of Sydney
Clover Moore MP
Stanford House
Triple M (shebang)
Living Clean and sober (fun without drugs and alcohol)
Gay and Lesbian Counselling Service
Elise Womens Refuge.
Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby.
Rainbow Women Willma Womens Health Centre.
Harbour City Bears
Victorian Firefighters.
Australian Labor party
IKEA
ACON
Riverside High Girls school
Surf Life saving Australia
NSW Fire Brigades
Australian Federal Police Gay and Lesbian Liaison Officers (180 officers!)
Canberra GLBTQ groups
PFLAG
National Centre of HIV Epidemeology and Clinical research
Australian Raelians
National Breast Cancer foundation
The Ankali Project
Kirketon Road Centre
The wayside chapel
Workers out (Union NSW)
MCC Churches Aus NZ
Rainbow Visions Hunter Valley.
Queer rights group - socialist alliance
Bring David Hicks home
amnesty International - GLBTQ Network
G&L’s supporting animal liberation
Darlinghurst Business Partnership
The greens NSW
Sydney Anglicans
Acceptance. (GLBTQ Catholics)
Open Door Community of Christ
Australian Democrats.
IBM GLBT employee group
Sydney Convicts Rugby
Freedom 2 b Gay Pentecostals Friends and Supporters
Cronulla Gay Group
Diversity Council Australia

Jenny said...

Regardless of your intention, Colin, the perception will indeed be one of affirmation of mardi gras and what it stands for, which is, in case you missed the point, the promotion of homosexuality as NORMAL.
That has always been the basis for mardi gras - "we are proud to be homosexual" - acceptance goes without question.
This leads to primary school books like King and King - totally about telling our 8 year olds that two men marrying is NORMAL. http://www.amazon.com/King-Linda-Haan/dp/1582460612

If you do not intend to normalise and give acceptance to homosexuality then cancel this whole venture now - before you naively do something you will long regret.
There still is NO evidence anyone is born a homosexual despite what Anthony Venn-Brown ‘thinks’. Ask him for the evidence - there is none. The APA has made politically correct, not scientific, judgements - many people have left the lifestyle and become heterosexual, again, despite what AVB might infer. Self justification is a powerful deceiver!
Yes, we must show that God loves the homosexual just as he does the thief and the murderer, BUT we must call for repentance and turning from sin, not acceptance of it, if they are to know God's freedom - try reading 1 Cor. 6 v9 - it is very clear.
Apologise for those Christians who have failed to show love to those seeking help, Apologise for those who have allowed homosexual people to think it is ‘normal’ and especially for those who have said change cannot happen - but do NOT apologise for those who correctly see homosexuality as a sexual sin, just like adultery, heterosexual promiscuity and bestiality.
And please do not embarrass yourselves and Australian Christians by endorsing a political march that flaunts sexual deviancy.

Adam said...

Jenny says, "There still is NO evidence anyone is born a homosexual despite what Anthony Venn-Brown ‘thinks’. Ask him for the evidence - there is none."

First off, I should do the honourable thing and make myself universally unpopular in this forum by asking when it is that theists, specifically Christians, became hungry for evidence?

Ask any atheist why they don't believe in god(s) and I bet you a glass of urine that the response you most often hear is that there is a complete lack of evidence for the existence of anything supernatural (demands for faith or circular theological arguments that say God must exist because he's perfect and existence is a quality of perfection or God must exist because people believe in her, don't seem to wash with everyone).

Bigots are bigots and kind folks are kind folks, with allegiance to myth having little effect on their behaviour. Colin and Andrew, you seem like nice folk. Jenny, you seem like a bigot.

That aside, may I suggest that it may be prudent for progressive Christians to consider moving beyond acceptance of the GLBT community and into a realm where scientia sexualis is disregarded? This is by no means a suggestion that people should be in the closet, prison or any other ghetto; but rather, I think its important to recognize that labels are invented by the powerful in order to gain and maintain power over minorities and other vulnerable people.

I understand that what I'm saying may a step so radical that it risks undercutting my intentions (of freeing bodies from words, ending the oppression of bodies with words) and so perhaps it is wise that people do fantasize about the Other so that they may accept them before unveiling that there is no Other.

Still, I think it's a step in the right direction but as I've poorly attempted to express; I think it's a step that exists in the game and at some point we should consider abandoning the game altogether and getting on with the production of life.

Apogee said...

adam says, "Ask any atheist why they don't believe in god(s) and I bet you a glass of urine that the response you most often hear is that there is a complete lack of evidence for the existence of anything supernatural..."

Popular opinion does not determine truth. Additionally... disregarding for a moment, the vast body of evidence which does in fact support the existence of the "supernatural realm", shall we say, you appear to have a misunderstanding of the nature of atheism.

Atheists, much as they hate to admit it, are bound to faith as strongly as Christians. Atheism is not a lack of belief in the supernatural. It is the belief that the supernatural does not exist. Why is it a belief? Because impossible to prove that the supernatural does not exist. Atheists must therefore accept their standing on faith.

andrew jones says, "What's more important is what God wants ... and it ain't always popular, glitzy, or safe."

Odd you say that because this whole thing strikes me as popular, glitzy and safe. Not for the church of course, but for the general (unsaved) community. Oughtn't that ring some alarm bells? Who respects the person who stands, not apart from, but with the mob?

To the organisers of this march, you are making a big mistake. This is validation, whether you intend it to be or not.

Alec said...

Adam disclaims evidence for God.

Adam, the evidence is within you - your inbuilt sense of right and wrong, and all around you - the beauty, complexity, order and harmony of creation; but to really see it you need the one reference point that truly resonates with it – the God who made it. And through his historical revelation of himself you can come to know him well enough to know that he cares about his creation and its creatures, and that his ways are best.

We Christians are not unthinking, nor are we uncaring. We know that hurt and harm and destroyed lives result from choosing behaviors and relationships that don’t agree with God’s design and will for our lives; yet we also know how hard it can be to make right choices, and how strongly our feelings and circumstances can push us in directions that aren’t good for us or others. But our message is one of hope.

The true God, the one who is there, is not just a God of love but also of truth, and we have learned that we truly experience his love and power when we are willing to conform our ways to his truth. You may think Jenny is bigoted, but Jenny is extremely well informed on this subject and cares enough to tell the truth rather than try to be popular.

“Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy.” [Proverbs 27:6]

Anonymous said...

To whomever wishes to read this,

Homosexuality is an abomination against GOD first and foremost and is detrimental to one's health as regards the AIDS virus.

The AIDS virus originally was named the GRIDS virus following the revelation that homosexual people tended to attract the virus with their debased practices and contrary to what is mistaken is the fact that you only get AIDS crossing over to the female side of the ledger when the homosexual goes looking for a proper relationship after being infected from his past practices.

So a homosexual can't escape being condemned by the Bible as being abominable and is deserving of death as Paul points out in Romans 1 and Leviticus 20 espouses that homosexuals need to be gotten rid of via execution. There is no escape for those who practice such things and get away with them.

Homosexuality is outlawed in the Bible and it is high time that all Christians affirm that homosexuality is a crime of the first degree and must be punished in our society and must be eradicated out of our lives and the Mardi Gras parade which makes a mockery of the French and Rio Dijenero practices of parading women down the street in a parade to mark the Catholic year for parading ones fat and food for display in the public and it has been transformed by the homosexual community of Sydney into a festival for themselves.

Homosexuals of Australia have also hijacked the rainbow that GOD established for us to remember the flood by and to remember that the world that existed before the blood was destroyed because of such practices as homosexuality, murder, rape, bestiality, debauchery and bloody mindedness.

The rainbow should be returned to its rightful place in the Biblical history as the mark of the devestation of the flood and how GOD would not resot to such devestating judgement again until the last day of judgement which will be felt by all as all will be raised from the dead, but those who do not believe they will be reserved for the Hell fire in the Lake of Fire.

Trevor said...

Alec said:

"Adam, the evidence is within you - your inbuilt sense of right and wrong, and all around you - the beauty, complexity, order and harmony of creation; but to really see it you need the one reference point that truly resonates with it – the God who made it. And through his historical revelation of himself you can come to know him well enough to know that he cares about his creation and its creatures, and that his ways are best."

Funnily enough, I could say many of the things about my homosexuality - the evidence is within me. And, as a Christian for most of my life, I was only able to accept my homosexuality when God persuaded me, through some quite specific revelation, that he really had made me that way and that he cared for me.

And then I was able to finally look at the Bible passages used so often against homosexuality and realise just how badly they had been misused, mistranslated and misinterpreted.

For instance, why do people think that the gender of the intedned rape victims in the story of Sodom is actually important? If it was, why did Lot even bother offering his daughters? And how on earth had the town survived if ALL the men were gay - as opposed to what they were, indiscriminate rapists.

I could go on, but then I might look like I'm ranting - like the ridiculous post above mine.

Nathan Keen said...

Trevor says,
"And, as a Christian for most of my life, I was only able to accept my homosexuality when God persuaded me, through some quite specific revelation, that he really had made me that way and that he cared for
me."

As much as I know that God can and does speak through revelation--there is a need to discern whether or not that was from God, the devil, or from your own head. Now, these revelations just don't line up with what the Bible clearly states, and with what nature clearly allows and disallows, and with the sickening lifestyle and diseases it is fraught with - see above 'rant' on AIDS - etc.

Your comment on Sodom is not revelation, somehow bringing new light. It is darkness.
How does over 2000 years of interpretation suddenly become wrong? Just where do you think the word sodomy came from? And, just look at the homosexual newspapers--they are full of lewdness and filthy language, and many ads regarding STDs: their lifestyle in no way reflects anything resembling a godly lifestyle.

This lewdness is what the parade about, not 'diversity'. Any Christians who participate would have to be disgusted--or otherwise their hearts were never changed by God.

Now, let's assume for the moment you are a Christian, Trevor--what is one of the marks of such a person? They are humble. The epitome of humility was Jesus Christ laying down his life for us, taking on for himself the anger and wrath that was meant for us. So, examine yourself with humility (2 Cor 13:5).

And all those who go to this, realise what you are accepting. Ultimately if you see what you see and are not sickened by the sin, then you are surely not born again.
God's love confronts wrong behaviour--it does not side with it.

Anonymous said...

The Mardi Gras is NOT the platform from which to share with the GLBT community the love of Jesus Christ. Even if it were a soley hetrosexual event, the sexual depravity and open promiscuity can not be accepted, or supported by born again Christians. By marching in the Mardi Gras, the 100Revs ARE condoning behaviour, which wether GLBT or hertrosexual is WRONG! Why can the 100Revs not work with the GLBT commmunity to hold another march, that is minus the openly sexual behaiour?

Anonymous said...

hey anonymous - and all who've commented above,
the Jesus I've come to know through reading the gospels was not someone who allowed judgements about people's sexual activity to determine how he interacted with them. He was far more likely to be comfortable eating (partying?) in "questionable" company than in the company of "righteous" or "nice" religious folk - whom he often and strongly chastised for their judgmentalism and lack of openness to the "true" faith of those they considered to be outsiders.
(even when Jesus considered particular behaviour to be "wrong", he always offered acceptance FIRST, rather than judgement, followed by an invitation (not a compulsion!) to choose life)

Anon, Why would gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people have any desire to be part of a "separate" event organised by churches, which have, by and large, ostracised, hurt, abused and denied them welcome?

The Mardi Gras is one celebratory march which highlights the incredible diversity of queer communities. It is one place where queer people come together to be safe and to be affirmed. As such, it is an excellent place for representatives of the church to begin the slow, painstaking work of re-building bridges between queer people and The Church; bridges that have been destroyed by years of rejection and hurt.
Bronwen

Trevor said...

Nathan, if you're going to tell me that the Bible 'clearly' says certain things... all that tells me is that you haven't actually read the Bible in any depth.

Starting with the fact that it was written in Greek and Hebrew, not English.

I know where the word 'sodomy' comes from... it's a reference to Genesis 19 of coruse. But there are numerous other references in the OT to Sodom, none of which suggest that Sodom was destroyed because of 'sodomy'.

I've never been to Mardi Gras, but it's become apparent to me from the stories of people who HAVE that the media picks the most controversial and lewd parts of it to broadcast, and ignores all the community groups that march in it.

To portray the homosexual 'lifestyle' as lewd, crude and sex-obsessed is about as representative as basing the heterosexual 'lifestyle' on the exploits of the drunken young men and women who spill out of most bars and nightclubs at 4am and vomit all over the footpath.

Trevor said...

Wait. One more thing, Nathan. On examining myself with humility.

I don't think you can even begin to understand how self-righteous and patronising that ends up sounding. Because you have no idea what it was like to spend 17 years examining and re-examining myself, my sexual desires, the Scriptures... desperately hoping to find the answer to a life of inner torment and anguish. What was I doing wrong? What was I thinking wrong?

17 years. All of them as a Christian. A Bible-believing Christian. I have examined every inch of my soul in that time. Every homosexual Christian does, because to us this question lies at our core. It is not some detached theological question where we get to point at others. It is something where we examine ourselves, over and over and over and over again.

I believe the Bible is the true and eternal word of God. I still believe that to be true. But that is a very different from believing that my UNDERSTANDING of what it says is inerrant.

Before you tell me to examine myself with humility, I suggest you examine your understanding of Scripture with humility and consider whether you've actually looked hard at the relevant passages. Ask yourself why you don't apply the entire Levitical holiness code. Ask yourself why translations of 1 Corinthians didn't translate a particular word as 'homosexual' until the last 50 years or so. Once you've dealt with the easy ones, ask yourself what Romans 1 is actually talking about.

I've spent 17 years asking hard questions of myself. It's your turn.

Nathan Keen said...

Trevor,
one of the clear statements is in Romans 1.
"26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

Here, there is no one word which may have been translated wrong--it is the entire sentence. Did they get this wrong? I think not.

If you can somehow be 'enlightened'
enough to read that as not condemning homosexuality, then why not encourage all forms of sexual deviancy?

Trevor, you are trying to defend the homosexual lifestyle as being okay, and 'diverse'-- I could, yes, pick on drunkenness or whatnot, but this is not the issue at hand.

You should read the fully sourced research document, '21 reasons why gender matters' which contains a vast amount of evidence for homosexuality as 'gender disorientation pathology' - and try not to make your own assertions unbacked by evidence.

E.g. "diseases such as anal cancer, herpes simplex virus, human papilloma virus, microsporidia, gonorrhea, viral hepatitis types B and C are particularly common among homosexual men. These diseases are much less prevalent among heterosexual men." and it goes on and on, about various topics within the lifestyle of homosexuals.

Promoting this behaviour by going to the mardi gras only serves to strengthen what used to be commonly called sin. We absolutely should not go to this, but get the evidence out there to stop the lies being told.

'21 reasons why gender matters' is very cheap and I could even post it to you for free if you want, Trevor. We need to be informed, and not listen to the next persons opinion.

Trevor said...

Nathan,

Read the Romans 1:18-32, not just those two verses, and I am quite happy to agree with you that homosexual orgies as part of worship of idols - as was practise in certain cults at the time of St Paul - are wrong.

- Trevor

Andrew said...

Nathan

Your lack of exegesis of the verses from Romans is appalling. You are a fine example of selecting a verse out of context and then loading it into your weeny little christian gun and firing it in the hope that some magical power might eminate and reveal the truth.

We have only to read your wordds and listen to your heart Nathan to know you are lost in pharisacal legalism lacking true love and insight. You are a part of the prblem not the solution - please go away!

Peter said...

Just in case people do not read my blog on the '100 Revs statement' blog - I need to repeat it here.
Especially for Andrew who has been led astray by some false biblical exegesis.
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 does include homosexuality and homosexuals.
Attempts to change the meaning by people like Boswell and Bailey do not stack up, I strongly suggest you go to >http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj3h.pdf> where James B. De Young gives a very clear expose of this issue - using the whole text.
The Bible says people will have itching ears to hear what they want to hear and you appear to be doing just that, Andrew.
Self justification will not get you into heaven - only a clear understanding of the Word of God and repentance of sin can do that.

Anonymous said...

to all the do gooders and self righteous, holier than thou christians writing on this blog.

Your words really make me angry. as if what you say is not bad enough the thing that really riles me is you attitude. If you really believed that all gay people are as depraved as you keep saying (bestiality. oh come on really)Then as christians you would be overwhelmed with love and compassion for them. Can't see much of that here can we. Which probably brings us back to why people felt it necessary to apologise. You keep reminding us how important it is. Keep posting.

Nathan Keen said...

"to all the do gooders and self righteous, holier than thou christians writing on this blog."
"you are lost in pharisacal legalism lacking true love and insight."

You put these terms out there but explain yourself in no way at all. Throwing names out at people just shows your lack of argument, and lack of grounding.

Let me clear up what the Pharisees were attacked for: Mark 7:6-23 says that the Pharisees made up their own laws and thus did away with the commandments from God. They had a love for themselves and loved to talk about their own righteousness, but they never honoured God.

No one here is making up new laws, except perhaps people like yourself who are so enlightened as to think that love and diversity means acceptance of everything. Jesus wanted everyone to follow God's commandments. God's way. The way. He said, I am theway, the truth, the life.

"as christians you would be overwhelmed with love and compassion for them."

God is love. God loves homosexuals. These are true. However, if God loves people, he must hate murder. If he loves nature, he must hate unnatural things. I am overwhelmed with love--though far from perfect in this or anything--and this is why, like the prophets and apostles and God, we will warn you of this acceptance of an abomination in God's sight. Stay well away from this practice.

The Mark 7 passage says this, "what comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts...deceit, lewdness.. pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

The Mardi Gras parade is lewd. What does Jesus call them? Evil.
The Mardi Gras parade promotes all kinds of sexual deviancies. What does Jesus call them? Evil.
Going there only furthers the GLBT's community cause of raising their profile and acceptance. There is NOT A SINGLE case of acceptance of homosexuality in the Bible.

The Bible says "whoever looks at a woman (or man) to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." And, "be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect". No one can be perfect to His standard. We try. But once we fail and realise we can't be good enough for God in our strength, we rely on Another, putting our full trust in Him.
Then Jesus becomes our righteousness (Romans 3:22), and changes our heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, able to be moulded by God.
The problem for those who think that homosexuality can't be changed is that you have never given yourself fully to Jesus Christ. He has the power to change you--He has for others. But you lust after men and women whom you are not married to. You do not want to submit and do things God's way. You do not understand the power of God, nor the things of God.

The Word of God says over and over again, that the change comes when you repent. Then you hear from God, and not the devil. Repent.

Peter said...

Anonymous
Perhaps the words make you angry because you know they are true.
I'm sorry if that hurts, but we are just saying what the Bible clearly says.
You have not offered any evidence that what we say is wrong - just that you don't like it.
Sadly, many people will not accept God today simply because they know it means total surrender - they don't want to surrender, they want to do 'their own thing', even if that leads them into grave danger. That is idolatry - putting anything including your sexual feelings ahead of surrender to Him.
God says, ‘Love the Lord your God with ALL your heart (and mind) and have no other gods - idolatry is having other gods that stop you reaching the one true God.
Unless you can sing that old hymn “I surrender all”, including your sexual desires, then there are other gods in your life.
God wants to work a miracle but you have to let him.
I pray you will.

Andrew said...

Peter

Faith in Christ is enough to enter heaven ... you should know that!

1 Corinthians includes a reference to homosexual behaviour that is unlovong toward God and who have rejected God ... you really need to read the text more clearly Peter.

The vast majority of gay Christians love God and honour him. The Corinithian text is not referring to them. Also, it's context speaks of people who once knew God and have blatantly rejected him. Interesting really.

Nathan, I am beginning to wonder if you are not in the closet. At any rate it's your heart that God will be examining as he will be doing with all the ministers who will march.

I for one don't require the likes of Peter or Nathan to tell me how to live an acceptable life before God. I'm sure that if one was to look more closely at Peter and Nathan's life one would find Pride, jealousy, deception, ommission of truth, a hunger for controlling the minds and hearts of good people. The veil across their eyes is vanity and it has a powerful hold on these two characters.

Trouble and hate mongers are Peter and Nathan ... predictable and pitiful!

Nathan Keen said...

Andrew says,
"Trouble and hate mongers are Peter and Nathan ... predictable and pitiful!"
No, I think you are predictable. Your responses are largely attacks on the person, and labelling and putting down the person, rather than attacking the argument. This is simply not logic at all, but a diversion because you can't adequately back up what you are saying.

About those others comments -
1 Cor 6 "speaks of people who once knew God and have blatantly rejected him".
"1 Corinthians includes a reference to homosexual behaviour that is unlovong toward God and who have rejected God"

So what you are saying is some homosexual behaviour is wrong? Only some is unloving, but you can do it in a loving way?
Verse 11 says some of you were adulterers, homosexuals etc., but you have been washed and sanctified-- or in other words, this uncleanliness is now cleansed.
Whatever you are saying--read also 6:12-20, and see that absolutely no distinction is made for this or that sort of sexual immorality. Paul here is warning those who don't think this is very important--however, (v19) "do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit..."
--it's a warning to Christians, to those who think that sexual immorality is okay.
All I can say is, (v20) "you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."

"gay Christians love God and honour him". If you love God, you would honour his commands, by acting them out. 1 John 2:4 says "He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

"I for one don't require the likes of Peter or Nathan to tell me how to live an acceptable life before God."
Perhaps this is okay--but consider Who we stand on. Or ask yourself--who would you like to tell you how to live an acceptable life? Anthony Venn-Brown? Or Bob, your partner? As for me, I would look to the Bible, and not try to conform my fleshly lusts to fit into the Bible, but simply, deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Jesus wholeheartedly.
By your statements, you don't show much appreciation for the Truth.

Btw, putting your full trust in Jesus Christ is only the first step---then, continuing daily to put your full trust in Him is the narrow path which leads to life. But sadly few want to go that way.

Andrew said...

Nathan

Yes you can be gay and love God and honour him following the road less travelled!

Try it.

Do you see how you are coming across Nathan? Do you really comprehend your own anger in your words, how you hide behind the biblical text with dear life.

I would suggest you are gay and you have many internal conflicts you won't or can't honestly share with your fellow Christian brothers etc. Because if they really knew your struggle they probably would remove you from all forms of leadership and place you in counselling.

Question - when you walk down the street and you look at the people passing by, do you notice the guys first or the women?

I post on this site to defend Mike and Colin in their efforts - not that they have asked me to do this, but I will not stand by any longer and watch a small number of numbskulls denounce their character and condemn them. They do not know either of these men but so easily judge them. I feel compelled to stand and fight for my equality before God and the church. God has no problem with it its just getting the message through to the many deaf parishoners that is the problem, especially the clergy!!!!

Nathan Keen said...

Andrew says,
"I would suggest you are gay"

you are simply badly mistaken if you think I am homosexual.

For your information, if you want to listen at all---I have a changed heart, and I don't "notice" men or women, in terms of anything to do with lusting after them or thinking anything regarding sexuality or 'looking hot' or anything like that. God has set my mind free from that, and I treat all people not as objects free for myself to use, but as people, God's creation.

Again and again, you just prove my points. I "hide behind the biblical test with dear life" because in it contains the words of God, who described himself as the life. I just simply cannot say that in my self I have the answers, and nor the power. The question still remains---where do you get your truth?

"God has no problem with it"
Again, you can get a hold of no backing arguments from either the Bible or any other place. Please, hold your voice unless and until you can adequately answer at least some of the above arguments.

"denounce their character and condemn them..judge them"
Again, I have not made the judgment nor do the condemning--God has already made it plain to you, and I am making it plainer.
Jesus says, in John 12:47-48 that he did not come to judge but to save. But that if you reject Him, and do not receive his words, has His words which judge him in the last day.
In other words--Jesus came to save those out of darkness (which could have been seen as judging), but for those who disbelieve him and his words, well he would then leave the judging to the final Judgment Day. This is what I do.

"my equality"
Well clearly again you are in error, because Jesus, as God, was and is holy. He just simply has no part with unrepentant sin.
If everyone was equal---what about the rights of murderers, or paedophiles? Mmm. Somewhere the line must be drawn, and i'm afraid you've stepped over it, Andrew.

Jesus does have an answer though, still, if you are willing to hear it. Please don't continue in the lie that you can't get out of it. It may be tough, but what is not possible with man is possible with God.

Andrew said...

Nathan

I am pretty sure you are gay!

Your reaction was enough to convince me you are really struggling with it. I'm not surprised given you have taken such a crusader stance. God doesn't need you to defend His word .... he needs you to be real and to live authentically, to live in the freedom that Christ has given you.

While you sing your loud noisy song about a cure for homsexuality I will stand right in front of you Nathan and say you are struggling and open my arms to you and say, "It's time to stop fighting and be who God created you to be. Your sexual orientation is not a sin Nathan. You are a blessing to God and all his Creation".

Nathan Keen said...

Andrew,
"God doesn't need you to defend His word"
If the Word of God is under attack, are Christians meant to just stand around and say nothing? I think not. You simply do not make any sense here.
And again, you have not put forth any argument whatsoever.

As to your other demeaning words, thankyou.

Andrew said...

Nathan

God's word is not under attack here.

Do you really think an all powerful God can't look after is own house? Is the creator of the cosmos so weak and feeble not to defend his Name?

Nathan, Francis of Assisi said, "Preach the Gospel at all times ... and where necessary use words".

Let the character of your life and dealings with others speak of Christ in your life

Nathan Keen said...

Andrew,
"God's word is not under attack here."
You and others are actually promoting homosexuality as normal and fine, something born with etc.!

"Is the creator of the cosmos so weak and feeble not to defend his Name?"
He can indeed. He utterly destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. But he uses people too. Think of the prophets, and their words coming true. Look around you today and see the decay of the western world--because the majority of it has rejected God.

"Let the character of your life and dealings with others speak of Christ in your life"
I most definately say that our lives should reflect Christ and show others that we have something different, something good. Our lives definately should point to God.
However, due to the current great lack of standing for anything by Christians, I think that we really do need to use words.
Also, the fact that this statement is on a blog website is reason enough-wouldn't you say?

The thing is, to attend and promote the mardi gras is not preaching a good gospel.
However, if you so had to attend, or if you really were sorry generally speaking, you'd be living as light and life: exposing the lies presented (however, it seems you yourself and others believe them); giving them resources which they can read and take a hold of - of people who have been transformed, and of Biblical truth which can set people free; and all the while, yes, be of good character, and live that good character out.

Anonymous said...

There are some sad comments here. The word Christian means LIKE CHRIST. Jesus did not mention homosexuality at all. He did condemn those who dared judged others though. Jesus was kind to those who sinned - even to the Roman centurian and his male lover.
Those he chastised were the hypocrites.
What 100REVS is trying to do is in line with Jesus's Teachings. THis is not about whether its a sin or not to be homosexual. The point of this exercise is CHRIST clearly teaches us its a sin to persecute and harm them even IF its a SIN.

Peter said...

Anonymous said
“There are some sad comments here.”
Yes, it is so sad to see how people like Andrew have “itching ears” to hear what suits them – mostly from AVB no doubt - and yet will not listen to the truth of the Word of Life.
.Andrew said
“Peter, Faith in Christ is enough to enter heaven ... you should know that!”
If I listened to my ‘heart’ without my head (brain) Andrew, I could think that, but your statement simply does not make sense. As Nathan points out that line of thinking would mean I could not only engage in homosexuality – as you want it to mean – but anything else like lying, stealing, and even murder.
I suggest you try to get a grip on the truth Andrew. The Bible says, Faith without works is dead Andrew – the first ‘work’ required is repentance or turning from sin.
What is sin? Certainly anything that is contrary to God’s creation/natural design. That includes Homosexuality Because using the anus rather than a vagina and, in the case of lesbians, using a toy instead of a penis, is definitely not natural.

Anonymous said, “Jesus did not mention homosexuality at all”,
That is not correct. You can say ‘he did not say the word homosexual but it is wrong to say He did not condemn homosexuality.
Jesus said “flee from sexual immorality”. To the Jew, sexual immorality clearly meant ALL sex outside marriage. Homosexuality was not an issue among the Jews so Jesus did not have to correct their thinking – but their thinking about adultery was wrong because people had led them astray, so he directly corrected that issue. He also told the adulterous woman to “go and sin no more” and he exposed the sin of the woman at the well who was involved in serial monogamy. He never condoned sin, he told people to repent. He told the tax collectors to clean up their act and he certainly did not tell the prostitutes to be nice prostitutes, he told the prostitutes to repent.
Christ died for sin – not to condone it but to give people a way OUT through faith and repentance of sin.
As for the “Roman centurian (sic) and his male lover.” Now where did you hear that distortion from? I must admit I have not heard that one, please explain?

Anonymous said...

Andrew, I just can't believe that you think intellectual assent (faith in Christ) is a free ticket to heaven. Do you know Him? Do you delight in Him? Is Jesus your treasure above all others?

I recommend you read John Piper's book Desiring God. God himself is the only one who can not only forgive our sin but completely fulfil our needs - by Himself. Looking in other places, including human relationships is idolatry.

I am astounded that you use language like 'blind numbskulls' and the like. Is that how you love and accept fellow Christians? Or are you just very annoyed that they proclaim the Bible's teaching, truth, and you have nowhere to run?

I sincerely hope you go back to the Lord Jesus with an honest heart and seek him - he will be found but he won't be made a mockery of.

Lets not all of us forget that there will be those on the last day of whom Jesus will declare 'Depart from me, I never knew you'. I would suggest that if you are not mortified and overwhelmed with shame at the offences you/we commit against God you may not have begun to understand his glory and holiness and why he had to give up his only Son in our place.

Cathy

Andrew said...

Cathy

I am blissfully with the Lord Jesus.

And I have no shame in my position. Don't be astounded with my language - dealing with the likes of Peter Stokes / Salt Shakers requires a challenging stance on a forward foot.

Cathy how many times have you read John Chap 3?

Can you please read it again, and again, and again! Oh and don't forget to look at the remainder of the NT

You have offered nothing toward this debate other than typical church cliched answers with littel regard for your audience. But that's ok girl you can be as spiritual minded as youi like but I fear you are of no earthly good!

Andrew said...

Cathy

I am blissfully with the Lord Jesus.

And I have no shame in my position. Don't be astounded with my language - dealing with the likes of Peter Stokes / Salt Shakers requires a challenging stance on a forward foot.

Cathy how many times have you read John Chap 3?

Can you please read it again, and again, and again! Oh and don't forget to look at the remainder of the NT

You have offered nothing toward this debate other than typical church cliched answers with littel regard for your audience. But that's ok girl you can be as spiritual minded as youi like but I fear you are of no earthly good!

Andrew said...

Peter

So what happened in your first marriage?

Why did it breakdown?

Andrew said...

Peter

Why are you using the NAtural Design chestnut?

Jesus never married or had kids but it God's design for men to procreate right? Where does this leave Jesus?

And what of the poor souls who are born deformed, with all manner of diabilities? Natural design - HOGWASH! A shallow answer Peter again not well thought through. Same sex love is very natural but you then again you are a sociopath so I epect those kind of lame responses from you. Unles you have tried anal sex you have no authority on the topic!

Two men loving each other is perfectly natural and within God's design and creation.

Peter's God is wrathful and a hater of gay men? An old school kind of God who is spiteful and angry all the time. And yet that is not what I read in God's word.

I just wish you could use something a bit more stimulating than the same old chestnuts Peter. It's a bit too much for you to move into the real world and the new century but hey that's your choice right? Crusading, stirring up hatred and anger, showing no love or compassion, a empty haertless soul. Where is your4 Jesus Peter? Where does he live? I think he might be in a glass house throwing stones! Your Jesus is gutless and a bully Peter, who gather de;light in causing dissension and factions. Your God does not bear the fruit of the Spirit Peter and nor do you!

Nathan Keen said...

Lest you get too carried away, Andrew, consider the following points.

You still only put forward the mere _assertion_ that homosexuality is natural, you do not provide any evidence apart from attacking other people's character, which has no relevance whatsoever.
I know and am an authority on the matter of murder when I say "murder is wrong". I don't necessarily have to murder to know this!

"An old school kind of God who is spiteful and angry all the time. And yet that is not what I read in God's word."
--Which Bible are you reading from, then? Certainly not the Bible I know.
Psalm 7:11 "God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day"
God's expression of love was extravagent in that he died for us while we yet sinners (as you point out, I assume, from above post in John 3 -> 3:16 for God so loved the world), however, if we reject him, well just read the following verses!
"he who does believe is condemned already..."

So in fact it is God's love that he uses others like "a bully Peter" to show others the light, even using hard (what you might see as hateful or very offensive) language.

As for way of example, how could you, seeing your young daughter being assaulted by a man, not be angry with that person? Even quite violent. And this would be the right response.

The issue is not the anger or wrath, or the love, but rather whether homosexuality is right or wrong. A point which you have yet to refute (that it is wrong), with particular note to, say,
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj3h.pdf

As for me, I would far rather be spiritually minded than earthly, for to be too earthly minded to be any spiritual good is certain condemnation to hell. God is Spirit. You should know that, Andrew.

Anonymous said...

Andrew, I am even more astounded by your words to me. Please don't tell me not to be astounded - the tone and content of your posts shocks me. I have never come across Christians who speak like this to other people.
I have read John Chapter 3 and the New Testament and find it astonishing that you think I haven't. How else would I have come to an understanding of what the Bible teaches?
I certainly don't intend to present cliches - these were my own words coming straight from my own heart and mind with my understanding of the Bible's teaching.
I have a completely clear conscience in this.
Do have a look at John Piper. His website is: www.desiringgod.com

Cathy

Cathy

Anonymous said...

That website is actually
www.desiringgod.org

Apologies...

Cathy